Afroman: Turning Shit Into Gold

This video features an in-depth interview with rapper Afroman, conducted by Andrew Callaghan for Channel 5. The conversation centers on Afroman's recent legal victory against the Adams County Sheriff's Department, who sued him for defamation after he used bodycam footage of a raid on his home in his music videos. Afroman discusses his upbringing, the cultural differences between Los Angeles and Mississippi, the origin of his stage name, and the viral success of his hit "Because I Got High." He also shares his perspectives on systemic racism, the ethics of language, and his vision for a self-governed community.

Why this document exists: Daniel sent this link at 3 AM Bangkok time during a five-hour conversation about why language models flinch when confronted with uncertainty. He said: "This is the perfect example of everything we have been talking about today. This is the number one example of turning shit into more shit." Afroman took a police raid, the worst day of his family's life, and turned it into diss songs that won a First Amendment case and earned him 800,000 new followers. The shit became the product. The product became the victory. The victory became this interview.

I. The Officer Nicknames 00:00–05:15

🎭 THE RENAMING

Watch what happens in the first five minutes. Afroman doesn't describe the officers — he renames them. "Run the stop sign, Wreck it Randy, We're not required to do that Walters." "Liccem Low Lisa, Full of Shit Phillips." Each name is a compressed narrative, a verdict delivered as a punchline. This is the same move he made in eighth grade with "Harry Carrie" — the social vigilante technology he's been refining for 35 years. The names stick because they contain the accusation. You can't hear "Officer Poundcake" without imagining the bodycam footage. The diss track is the discovery process.

[00:00] AFROMAN: Officer Shawn Cooley is Officer Poundcake. He's the biggest star out of all of them. I don't know, I think Lisa took his place. Lisa's down on the totem pole. Randy's number one. Randy's the man.

[00:12] AFROMAN: Uh, his name is "Run the stop sign, Wreck it Randy, We're not required to do that Walters." That's his name. Yeah.

[00:22] AFROMAN: He's the guy that inspired me to make music about the whole situation.

[00:26] [visual: Music video clip plays with the lyrics "Randy Walters is a son of a bitch"]

[00:30] AFROMAN: The worst thing I said was Randy Walters is a son of a bitch, that's why I fucked his wife and got filthy rich. But I said that to Randy Walters. I didn't say that to the police department. He's the guy that pissed me off and cracked a smile. He thought it was funny that my door was on the floor.

[00:47] AFROMAN: No. After I started watching the bodycam footage and my house footage, Brian Newland was like a human snake. All of this came from him. He ran the door, he kicked the door in. He was reading my bank statements. He wanted in my safe. And he always stayed out the camera. He didn't want to be on no FaceTime with me. He was trying to get me, he didn't want me to put a face to it. You know what I'm saying? He was a real—I got more respect for Randy Walters than Brian Newland.

[01:29] ANDREW CALLAGHAN: But I mean, like, what's the inspiration for the nickname?

[01:31] AFROMAN: I like to keep the same consonant going. So her name was Lisa, so my brain just took off in the L section. I was like, Lisa. Liccem Low Lisa. I got the triple up, cuz. Three names for the set, cuz. Liccem Low Lisa. And uh, then her name was Phillips. So I was like, Liccem Low Lisa, Full of Shit Phillips. We from LA, we used to call it bagging. The homies bag all the time. It's like breathing. It ain't nothing. "Oh, look at you big basketball head fool. Look at this motherfucker." You don't want to bag with me, I come from the best, you know? So I just—I just started capping on her easy, you know, it was just play. No, we some Marines, man, we some, you know, we some veterans, soldiers. Our play is violent to them. It's like some lion kittens playing with an actual cat. They might hurt him playing with him, like, "Hey buddy, what's the matter? Why you so sensitive?"

[02:15] ANDREW CALLAGHAN: I think the mouthpiece just overpowers their ability to even process what's going on.

[02:18] AFROMAN: No, when you make a spectacle out of them and people laugh, they can't take it. They can't take it. We gotta take it every day. Every American citizen gotta take it. Get pulled over by the cops, wrote a ticket, motherfucker smack you. Take it. We take it. They can't take it.

[02:32] ANDREW CALLAGHAN: Ladies and gentlemen, my name is Andrew Callaghan and you're watching a Channel 5 exclusive interview. Today we're going to be talking to Afroman. Real name Joseph Edgar Foreman. A laid-back, stoner-based and often comedic rapper and performer, who first blew up in 1998 out of Palmdale, California. A high desert town just a stone's throw from LA. His breakout hits included "Crazy Rap," aka "Colt 45 and Two Zig-Zags," and also, "Because I Got High." Two quintessential stoner anthems that defined cannabis culture around the turn of the millennium. Since then, he's released a steady stream of music and has maintained a small, albeit dedicated fanbase. However, he'd have another explosion in popularity around 2022, that nearly rivaled his breakout decades prior. This came after he dropped the diss song titled, "Will You Help Me Repair Me Door."

[03:17] [visual: Music video clip plays with the lyrics "Will you help me repair my gate? Will you help me repair my door?"]

[03:28] ANDREW CALLAGHAN: Which was basically a diss to the cops, directly naming the Adams County Sheriffs who'd raided his Ohio home at gunpoint based upon a questionable warrant that implicated Afroman in narcotics trafficking and kidnapping.

[03:39] [visual: Music video clip plays with the lyrics "The warrant said narcotics and kidnapping"]

[03:44] ANDREW CALLAGHAN: In the process, the sheriffs broke down his door, destroyed his gate, disconnected his security cameras, pointed semi-automatic weapons at his young children, and one sheriff, who Afroman calls Officer Poundcake, appeared to come within an inch of scarfing down what was left on the kitchen counter.

[03:57] [visual: Music video clip plays with the lyrics "Mama's lemon pound cake, it tastes so nice. It made the sheriff want to put down his gun and cut him a slice."]

[04:17] ANDREW CALLAGHAN: Despite finding no evidence of narcotics or kidnapping during the raid, Adams County Sheriffs refused to apologize or help him cover the cost of the property they destroyed. So Afroman deployed creative means to increase public pressure, dropping not one but a series of diss songs that detailed the incident extensively. Once again showing the officers' faces on screen each time, and outlining his plans to file a lawsuit. But before Afroman could file his lawsuit, the sheriffs filed their own.

NEWS ANCHOR: A legal battle over privacy for officers involved in a raid. At the center of it, rapper Afroman.

[04:48] ANDREW CALLAGHAN: Somehow, the judge approved their motion, and the defamation case went to trial.

[04:56] ANDREW CALLAGHAN: After multiple years in court, the jury ultimately ruled that Afroman's diss songs were covered by First Amendment free speech protections, and that he wouldn't need to pay the sheriffs a goddamn dollar.

AFROMAN: Yeah! We did it America! Yeah, we did it! Freedom of speech! Right on! Right on! Yeah! God bless America! Yeah!

II. Freedom of Speech Won 05:15–10:30

CLINICAL — THE LEGAL FRAMEWORK

The Adams County Sheriff's Department raided Afroman's Ohio home in 2022 based on a confidential informant's claim of narcotics trafficking and kidnapping. Found nothing. Charged nothing. Afroman used his own security camera footage in a series of diss songs naming the individual officers. The officers sued for defamation. After a multi-year case, a jury ruled the songs were protected speech under the First Amendment. Damages awarded to plaintiffs: zero.

[05:15] ANDREW CALLAGHAN: Afroman was ecstatic. As were millions of Americans across the political spectrum. Anyways, enjoy the interview.

[05:20] AFROMAN: My name is the Hungry Hustling American Dream, backslash Afro-American Wet Dream, Afro Money-Making Marijuana-Smoking M-A-N, and I am a singer, rapper, free comedian, musician.

[05:34] ANDREW CALLAGHAN: And so for somebody without a TV and no social media access, how would you explain to them what happened with the case and over the past couple years?

[05:46] [visual: Music video clip plays with the lyrics "How can you take me to court, when you stole my money and it's 400 dollars short?"]

[05:52] AFROMAN: There's the original Americans who want their freedom of speech, and there's like this new legal breed that's evolving that want to challenge that freedom of speech. You know what I'm saying? Like they say hate speech makes this new evolving group want to challenge freedom of speech. Well they call it defamation. They have all these different variations of speech that want to challenge freedom of speech. Freedom of speech is such a broad statement, people are, you know, they're starting to take little cracks at it here and there to see if it can be freedom of speech under certain circumstances. With my case, we feel like overall freedom of speech won. In America you can say what you want to say, good or bad. Now they say if you tell a lie that's defamation of character. But I did my research and I wasn't telling any lies. You know, it was a fact. The cop—I was trying to figure out who the cops were. So as I zoomed in on them, I'd take a picture of them, then I'd go do my homework and research. "Who is this guy?" I'd put him up. "Who is this guy?" And people would pop up. "Oh, that is Brian Newland." Yeah, his brother was a police officer too, and he got fired because he was a convicted pedophile. They found, you know, I start finding out who these strangers were walking around in my house. So to the general public, you have freedom of speech but don't lie on people because if you lie on people then they can possibly sue you for defamation of character. But you have freedom of speech, especially if you're telling the truth. And uh, I feel like I won because I was telling the truth, I was doing my homework, and the police officers who raided my house, they didn't find anything, they didn't charge me, they vandalized and kicked down my door, they placed themselves on my video camera, they placed themselves into my music career, therefore the jury, they found me not guilty of defamation of character. So I have—that's a big nutshell, but that's the fastest way I could burrito it for everybody.

[08:12] [visual: Music video clip plays with the lyrics "Raid my house and then get pissed, 'cause the dungeon don't exist. My proof's on the internet."]

[08:22] AFROMAN: I tell any citizen that's broke, if you don't got no money for a lawyer, you get you some damn good videotape footage. You get your evidence and you stand on it, you yell it out loud, you repeat it as much times as you can.

[08:40] AFROMAN: Every—the "you shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free." So have your evidence, have your videotape, put it up on the media just in case you don't—so you don't lose it or anything get goofy. Stash it as many places as you can. Get your facts straight. And you don't need no money with the truth. When you've done all you can do to stand, you stand. And you yell it out. And this life is a war against good and evil. Sometimes we win, sometimes we lose. But fight.

[09:15] AFROMAN: Yeah, it's—this whole life is a battle between good and evil. Is it good for you to vandalize my property, kick down my door, steal my money, flip off my surveillance camera, and then try to sue me in court? Is that good?

[09:28] ANDREW CALLAGHAN: And potentially like eyeball some lemon pound cake that looked pretty good on the counter.

[09:32] AFROMAN: That's not good, man. That's—that's bad. So the good people have to fight that element. You gotta fight it with money, you gotta fight it without money. You gotta fight. And you know, if everybody leaves you alone and everything is fine, you know, don't start no trouble. But man, when trouble kicks down your door, and trouble steals your money, and trouble looks at your lemon pound cake, sometimes you just—you can't be no wussy. You gotta pull your pants up, you gotta go out there and address that trouble. You know what I'm saying? Especially if you the man of the house. Women get to have babies and—and—and you can't hit women. You have to respect women, you hold the door open for them. There's a woman's role and there's her duties. Then there's a man's role and his duties. So when the government kick down your door and scare your kids and steal your money, a man gotta stand up to the government. A man gotta stand up to anybody that's doing wrong.

ANDREW CALLAGHAN: Yo, Phoenix, Arizona, what the hell is up? Yo, Atlanta, Georgia, what the hell is up? Yo, El Paso, Texas, what the hell is up? You guys, guess what? I'm coming to your town to screen two secret documentaries, host a sick ass talent show, maybe some rap battles for something called the C5 Carnival. I am currently in Texas on tour right now, but having some fantastic shows. You can buy a ticket right now. You can see two secret documentaries, you can see rap battles, maybe a talent show, definitely, and a moderated Q&A, for sure. If you buy a ticket right now at www.channel5.news. And remember, Atlanta, El Paso, Phoenix, we need you. www.channel5.news. Tickets on sale now in the pinned comment and description box of this video. All right.

III. Texas, Mississippi, and the Flight to LA 10:30–22:00

🌧️ THE GEOGRAPHY OF BECOMING

Every Afroman story is a geography lesson. Marshall, Texas → Compton (grandfather, ox and wagon, $7,000 house) → 69th and Western (Eight-Tray Gangsters) → Palmdale (dad's rescue) → Hattiesburg, Mississippi (the retreat) → back to Ohio (the compound). Each move is a survival decision. His dad moved him to Palmdale to save his life — and probably did. The pattern is: get somewhere dangerous, recognize it, get out, use the material. The entire creative method is encoded in the migration path.

[11:12] ANDREW CALLAGHAN: So there's a quote that you have that uh you once said that your dad said. And your dad's from Mississippi, right?

[11:18] ANDREW CALLAGHAN: Okay, you lived in Hattiesburg for a while, but he comes from what part of Texas is he from?

[11:21] AFROMAN: Uh, he's from Marshall, Texas. He's from the same town as George Foreman. We—we think George Foreman is our family member because that—that town, Marshall, Texas, is too small for two Foremans to come out of that—to come out of that same freeway exit, you know what I'm saying?

[11:37] ANDREW CALLAGHAN: So you said your dad once said, "Son, I'm not going to whoop you for fighting, I'm going to whoop you because you was standing over there." What does that quote mean to you?

[11:43] AFROMAN: My dad taught me how to avoid a fight. He said, "You defended yourself, and you didn't let that boy beat up on you, so I ain't gonna whoop you for that. I'm gonna whoop you for being in a place where you could get in a fight. I'm gonna whoop you for being in a position for a fight to come to you. 'Cause if you was home doing what you was supposed to do, you wouldn't have got in a fight." And what I'm thinking is, those police officers, their daddy never gave them that little seven, eight-year-old whooping that I got. And so they're unaccountable. They make a mistake and then they cry and point the finger and they want to throw little fits until they make something bad happen to me. They're not getting the point. The point is, you wasn't supposed to be there. All rivers lead back to the ocean. All my statements and my points lead back to the nutshell point: you had no business over here. You got some bad information, you didn't do your homework, you moved too fast, you vandalized my place, you put yourself on my cameras, you stole my money, you disconnected my cameras, you didn't want to help clean up the mess, and then when I do what I gotta do to clean up your mess, you want to sue me for using my methods of redeeming my place. Yeah.

[13:10] AFROMAN: Well thank you, brother. Hey man, all I can do is fight and tell the truth. I mean, I can stand there and be quiet while that keeps going on, or I can say something. In the movies they go, "Stop, thief!" Now that dude was getting away until somebody put him on blast. "Thief!" Everybody know, "Hey, whoever's moving right now is some bad dude," and he can't move like he did. Now if he didn't say nothing, that dude gets to—to get away with no hassle. But that's why we have freedom of speech. That way when we have a problem, we can acknowledge that problem. After we acknowledge that problem with our freedom of speech, we can address that problem. After we address that problem with our freedom of speech, we can solve that problem.

[13:53] [visual: Music video clip plays with the lyrics "They vandalized my property, my money came up short. They disconnect my cameras because they are a poor sport."]

[14:02] ANDREW CALLAGHAN: Are there any other areas in society right now where you feel like freedom of speech is being eroded in some way?

[14:06] AFROMAN: Everywhere. Everywhere. Now I noticed how the sheriff department, the same sheriff that's suing me, they assisted the Nazis to have their freedom of speech. And I want the Nazis to have their freedom of speech. But what I'm saying is let me have mine too. Don't give the Nazis freedom of speech and tell me I can't say nothing. Let's all have freedom of speech at the same time. That's all I'm saying. Be fair with the freedom of speech, don't be partial with the freedom of speech. "This guy has freedom of speech but this guy doesn't." You know what I'm saying?

[14:38] ANDREW CALLAGHAN: So you think that points to a broader problem like as far as how law enforcement gives preferential treatment to certain groups in the country?

[14:44] AFROMAN: You know, I'm just look at my eyeballs for right now. For right now, my eyeballs see sheriffs helping Nazis in and out of U-Haul trucks, helping them have their freedom of speech.

[14:55] ANDREW CALLAGHAN: You talking about Patriot Front with the white masks that do like different rallies across the country?

[15:03] ANDREW CALLAGHAN: Like actual American Nazi Party people doing a demonstration in—in Adams County?

[15:07] AFROMAN: And I'm not knocking them. I'm just saying I want the same privileges they got. That's all I'm saying. Let cuz—I want—I'll stand for freedom of speech. I want a guy to say when he has a problem with me. I want to know it. I don't want him to shut up and he's holding all that inside. I want a man to have freedom of speech. So I want the Nazis to have their freedom of speech, but I want to have my freedom of speech also. Everybody should have freedom of speech. If you're from America or in America, you should have freedom of speech.

[15:33] ANDREW CALLAGHAN: So backing up from the court case, going all the way back in time, I want to talk about Texas, I want to talk about your dad, and then the move to LA. You talk a lot about your dad in interviews. Was he a special person and a big influence on your life?

[15:43] AFROMAN: Yes he was. Yes he was. He didn't pick fights, but every now and then he'd stand on a principle. I seen him go get his pants hemmed one time. He was from the military, he's accustomed to that straight hem. This new hip seamstress wanted to do like some of that cool slant Miami Vice BS with him. And he was telling like, "No, I don't want my pants hemmed like that." He said, "I want my pants straight at the bottom." And then the guy goes, "Everybody do it like this." And he was like, "I am not everybody." And the guy looked at him, he looked back, and the guy just slowly went down and got it like he wanted it. Not to be hard to work with, but when he's right he stood on the principle that made him right.

[16:32] AFROMAN: Dude, like I say, you don't want to walk around picking out—picking fights, walking around—I'm not telling you to be a—a bad dude. But when people kick down the door to where your family live, it's time for a man to stand on some business and stand on some principle. Like you need to see if they were right, and if you're right and they're wrong, stand on it. Stand on it buck naked with your boxers on. "No, you wrong, you ain't got—" They army with a whole bunch of guns. If you don't got time to grab your gun and grab your bulletproof vest, you stand on the facts.

ANDREW CALLAGHAN: So in the Afroman case, the sheriffs actually needed a warrant to figure out where he lived, what his family members' names were, and his previous residences. But guess what? Nowadays with fast people search sites, five bucks can let any Joe Schmo figure out where the heck you live. That's right, where you lay your head at night and sleep peacefully, perhaps next to your lemon pound cake. Let me break it down for you. So there are hundreds of companies called data brokers that have been quietly building files on you for years. That's right, you. Your home address, your phone number, your relatives, your purchase history, maybe your porn history. Packaged up and sold to whoever wants it. This type of thing has had lethal and horrible consequences. For example, a lone gunman and conspiracy theorist murdered Minnesota State Representative Melissa Hortman and her husband and dog at their home. Court documents show that he found their address on one of those people search sites that are powered by data brokers that have been collecting your information your entire life, which is not cool and why this video is sponsored by Incogni. Which you can sign up for right now at incogni.com/channel5 and use code CHANNEL5 for 60% off. So Incogni works on your behalf to get your info wiped and removed from all databases. You just sign up, grant them the right to act for you, and watch as they work magic. And by magic, I mean doing the tedious work of contacting all these data brokers directly. Making phone calls, submitting removal requests, and keeping their foot on the gas when these goddamn data brokers try to play dumb and say, "We don't know how this info got here." Yes you do, take it off, Incogni. About a month ago I signed up and I currently have over two dozen removals in progress right now thanks to Incogni. And guess what? On the Unlimited and Family Unlimited plans, they just launched custom removals. Meaning you can be a researcher too. You can look yourself up and if you find your info on one specific site, you can ask Incogni to hit them up for you and get it down. If you're on that plan, they'll even pair you with a privacy agent. A real flesh and bones human being who will fight on your behalf and once again keep his foot on the gas when these data brokers want to play dumb and say, "Hey, this is Incogni, take that down." As I mentioned, do me a favor and just go to incogni.com/channel5 and use code CHANNEL5, again, 60% off, link is in the description box and pinned comment of this video. Remember, if shit hits the fan, the feds can't use what they can't find. All right.

[19:29] ANDREW CALLAGHAN: Back to the upbringing, did your parents meet in Texas?

[19:31] AFROMAN: Um, no, they met in LA. My dad's from Texas, my mom's from Alabama, but they both, you know, there was like this flight of Black people from the South that went to LA, Chicago, other Northern—you know, the Black flight. All the Blacks that were leaving the South, they went to different metropolitans for whatever reason. Mine went to Los Angeles.

[19:51] ANDREW CALLAGHAN: Yeah, I was curious 'cause that was like the Civil Rights Act was passed in '64, then you had the Second Great Migration which created the flight to Oakland, to South Los Angeles, places like that. So I'm assuming your dad followed that path.

[20:03] ANDREW CALLAGHAN: Did he feel like the promise of the West was fulfilled in his move to LA?

[20:05] AFROMAN: At the time, I guess it was a good move at the time. My grandfather, he moved to Compton on an ox and a wagon. He rode a ox and a wagon from Texas all the way to Compton. And he bought his property in Compton for 7,000 dollars. I think a house in Compton is like two million now. You know, two million dollar you get shot in the ass while you bringing in your groceries and shit, you know what I'm saying? We curse on here or—

[20:31] ANDREW CALLAGHAN: Okay, you can say whatever the hell you want. You don't gotta go all the way there.

[20:37] AFROMAN: All right, I just love the option, all right. So at that time, it was the economic thing to do, 'cause I don't think he could get land in Texas for 7,000 dollars. I don't know back then. It was all about—they were suckering people to LA. They was jobs was out there, it was like a move back then. It's not a move right now, but back then it was a move.

[20:56] ANDREW CALLAGHAN: So moving there in the '60s and '70s was a great time period for Black people whenever they got there 'cause like—

[21:00] AFROMAN: It might have been in the '50s, '40s, but I don't know. At some point my grandfather moved from Texas to California.

[21:08] ANDREW CALLAGHAN: So you were born in 1974 during a very transitional time period for LA, for California. What do you remember about your early life, like being elementary school age?

[21:17] AFROMAN: I remember afros, I remember bell bottoms. I remember people dancing outside of the laundromat to uh "Shake Your Booty." I remember telling my mom, "Ooh mom, they said a bad word." I thought booty was such a bad word. I uh, I remember palm trees, I remember the Southside Christian Palace where I sung my first song. But I was a baby. Then I, you know, I moved to Alabama at five years old. And I stayed between Mississippi and Alabama for like the next five, six years. So I came back to California when I was 12.

[21:51] ANDREW CALLAGHAN: And what was your life like there, what kind of stuff were you getting up to?

[21:53] AFROMAN: Oh man. I think that's where I got my—my hustle and my—I don't know, it was a—it was a major point. It's like where I started rapping. That's the first place I saw rich Black people. Guys with hair longer than the women. Uh, I start seeing like—like police officers just jump out on any random Black person. I realized that we all looked alike and we were all suspects until they figured out what was going on and police helicopters. I never seen a homeless person. Everybody in the South had somewhere to go. It was a raggedy shack but he could sleep in his auntie's somebody house or—it wasn't no homeless people in the South. So I never seen people sleeping on the ground. I never seen graffiti. I thought that was nasty. I didn't like that. You like, "What the hell they write on the damn wall everywhere I look?" It was just like nasty. But I like palm trees, I love the fact that it didn't rain. That was tripping me out. I went back to the South, I heard thunder, I jumped on the ground, I thought somebody was shooting 'cause I ain't heard thunder in so long I forgot about it, you know.

IV. The Frontier of Racism 22:00–30:30

🎭 THE TAXONOMY OF RACISM

"California is the most racist place in America." This is the thesis statement of the section, and he backs it with a distinction nobody in mainstream discourse makes: Southern racism is traditional and classier — "don't start nothing won't be nothing." California racism is innovative and unapologetic. The Southern cop who pulls you over is polite about it. The California cop is "kind of happy even if I wasn't the guy." This is a phenomenological distinction, not a moral one. He's not saying Southern racism is better — he's saying it's legible. You know the rules. California has no rules, just vibes, and the vibes are hostile.

[22:55] ANDREW CALLAGHAN: Was there a particular like police brutality incident that you remember witnessing as a young kid in LA that like really stuck with you?

[23:01] AFROMAN: I never really saw, you know, we all saw Rodney King. And I knew it was going on. I'd hear stories, I'd see people the next day and they would tell me stuff. I would just see the police be rude and out of line. Uh, searching deacons coming home from church. They'll get a gang call and be searching Bill Cosby on the side of the road, you know what I'm saying? Like I was just seeing unapologetic police officers. I definitely knew that they were aggressive, like another type of aggressive. An aggressive I didn't even see in Mississippi. You know, 'cause in the South you had to actually do something. It wasn't just—it wasn't as random as it was.

[23:37] ANDREW CALLAGHAN: Yeah, a lot of people like characterize the South as being really backwards and they make it seem like the West Coast has it all together.

[23:43] AFROMAN: No. No. Uh, the West Coast is the frontier of racism. Like they are uh innovative with racism. Like somebody somewhere right now coming up with a—with—with more racist terminology, more racist jerk, more racist jokes, more, you know, it's on the frontier of racism. Yeah, California, I believe it's the most racist place in America.

[24:08] ANDREW CALLAGHAN: What are some of the ways you saw racism baked into California society that you didn't see in the South, like maybe something that was more behind the scenes?

[24:15] AFROMAN: Okay, a racist cop in the South, he thought he was better than me, he didn't like me, but he would still be polite. "Good morning. You look like somebody we looking for. We just need to make sure you're not him and we'll let you go and I'm sorry for the inconvenience if you're not this guy." A California dude was more unapologetic and kind of happy even if I wasn't the guy, he was still kind of happy he treated a N-word bad. You know what I'm saying? So uh, California had more unapologetic racism. Mississippi had a traditional, understandable racism, but it—it—it wasn't—it's there, but it wasn't—it's not as rude.

[25:09] AFROMAN: You know, like, "Don't start nothing won't be nothing." You know, they feel how they feel but, you know, everybody know what's up in the South. But LA is up for grabs. So everybody want to spray paint on the wall, claim they territory, you know, everybody want their own piece of paradise and they don't want to share it with, you know, another nationality or group or whatever. So if you think about it, LA's the most segregated city in Los Angeles, you know.

[25:37] AFROMAN: I'm say in the country. Of course, you know, uh Mexicans outpopulate everybody. But there was a time when each race stayed somewhere in the city. Mexicans had East LA, Blacks had South Central, Watts, Compton, white people had West LA and Hollywood, they had the beaches, Santa Monica, you know, all that good stuff. And it was a real segregated city. It's the, you know, it's the most segregated city. Three racial riots, probably even more, you know what I'm saying, like blah blah blah.

[26:05] ANDREW CALLAGHAN: Was there a period of more like Black unity in South Central before gangs became so prominent, like during the late Black Panther era?

[26:12] AFROMAN: I um, you would see it when the police beat up like—like when that little girl got killed over that orange juice.

[26:24] ANDREW CALLAGHAN: But you never went down the whole like rabbit hole of like the systematic like deconstruction of like certain communities in LA by the CIA?

[26:29] AFROMAN: Yeah, yeah, you know, I um—dude, God bless America, the land that I love, land where my fathers died. But if I was to keep it real, Black people wasn't brought to America for America to be beneficial to Black people. Black people were brought to America to be burden bearers, to make life convenient for the white people who bought them. So there's a element in America that gives Black people the short end of the stick. Now, all white people ain't like that. The good white people need to influence the bad white people a little bit more, a whole lot more. So yeah, the government put crack in the Black neighborhood. That's bad. That's bad. I don't like that. But uh, a Black person gotta learn how to say no. "I don't want your crack." The government do what it do, but despite that, you know, all the strides that Afro-Americans have made. You know, we went to France, I think they call them the—the Harlem Hellstormers or something. France praised these men. The Tuskegee Airmen that helped win the World War II. It's a reason why ICE can't deport me. Everybody gotta go home except this guy. You can put me in prison, you can hang me from a tree, but—no, I—I stay.

[27:59] ANDREW CALLAGHAN: So going back to LA, what prompted that move to Palmdale?

[28:02] AFROMAN: When I was living in Los Angeles, uh I was trying to go to school and do my homework and everything. And I was the only child, so I was trying to fit in with the little boys in my neighborhood. So uh, I started claiming the set. And—

[28:20] AFROMAN: Yeah. I start claiming my section of LA, we say set, claiming the set. I start claiming my section of LA. I went to school, I went to junior high with my rivals, and there was no way that I was going to complete junior high school with my rivals as deep as they were at that junior high school. So I told my dad about that. So to give me a clean start to be able to finish school, he took me to Palmdale. He did his homework, he did his research, and he didn't realize—he didn't know nothing about gang—he was a good old Black man from Texas. All Black people was—we was all slaves, we was all poor, we was all in the ghetto. He didn't know what the problem was, he didn't understand none of that stuff. But once he seen what was up, he realized he moved us somewhere crazy. He said, "Okay." So he went up to Palmdale, he bought us a house up there, and that's how I got to Palmdale.

[29:10] [visual: Music video clip plays with the lyrics "No more ducking from shotgun shells, bought a two-story house in East Palmdale. Give it to me now, Palmdale. Hey, yeah, come back to me."]

[29:20] ANDREW CALLAGHAN: Before you went there, did you ever have any encounters with like Tookie Williams or Big U?

[29:24] AFROMAN: No, uh I think Tookie was gone before I came along. No, he wasn't gone like dead, but I think he was in prison before I came along. The Rollin 60s set was like—that was a foreign country to me. I didn't stagger around there meeting different Rollin 60s, you know, I didn't know no Rollin 60s.

[29:41] AFROMAN: Yeah, that was the Northside. Like my set, we expanded across Florence. The Eight-Tray Gangsters run the 80s, and they took over the 70s. Then they crossed Florence and they started nibbling on some of those 60 streets. So when I came there and I moved there on 69th, it was Eight-Tray Gangsters around and uh, you know, I started getting, you know, I was a little boy, I started, you know, knowing them and affiliating with them. And uh, they was taking over, you know, they start pushing cats on the west side of Western and north of 67th Street.

[30:15] ANDREW CALLAGHAN: Did you feel like when you went to Palmdale, things calmed down a bit and you could focus more on like school and music and stuff like that?

[30:20] AFROMAN: Yes. Yes, definitely. You can get in a fight in Palmdale too, but it wasn't like LA. LA there was no choices. LA it was what it was in LA, you know what I'm saying.

V. Afroman: The Name, The Hustle, The Game 30:30–48:00

🌧️ SHIT INTO GOLD — THE CORE TECHNOLOGY

Here it is. The title of this document. A girl calls him "Afroman" as an insult. Everyone laughs. The name sticks. Instead of fighting it, he puts it on hats and t-shirts. He draws a smiley face in the O. He makes rap tapes under the name. The insult becomes the brand. This is the exact same move as turning a police raid into "Lemon Pound Cake." The exact same move as turning "Because I Got High" from a stoner anthem into a career. Every Afroman story has this shape: someone hands him shit, he turns it into a product. The Too Short influence is explicit — "the girls told him he was too short, so he put it on hats and shirts and it worked." The technology is: don't fight the label, sell it.

[30:30] ANDREW CALLAGHAN: I want to hear about the song that you made in eighth grade called "Harry Carrie."

[30:34] [visual: Music video clip plays with the lyrics "So gather round young cholos, Bloods and Crips, while I rap about the hair on Carrie's lips. It goes, Harry Carrie. Harry Carrie."]

[30:44] AFROMAN: Man, you know what? The other day I called myself a—like you got serial killer, right? I call myself a serial rapper. Like, I'll take you out lyrically, you know what I'm saying? Like, I was in the sixth grade, Raymond Elementary. This girl had a lot of money, she had some real fancy clothes, and she picked on everybody. Me and all the other kids, we were poor and raggedy and we couldn't buy 50 dollar tennis shoes and 100 dollar jumpsuits. So I remember she was a—she was a—she was cute. She was a real cute girl but she was real mean and rude. And she had like a slight mustache. Her lip was kind of dark around the tip. So I—I wrote this rap song exaggerating about her mustache. I had uh, there was "La Di Da Di," so I made "Harry Carrie." I—I—I kind of structured my song like "La Di Da Di," but I turned to "Harry Carrie." I wrote it, and then I had my friend beatbox. And so I said it. "Harry Carrie ate her own cherry, that's why her lips are very, very hairy." You know how they used to say you go down on a girl you get hairy lips and stuff. So I said, "Harry Carrie ate her own cherry, that's why her lips are hairy." And they was like, "Whoo!" In elementary school that was a good lord. "Whoo! You gonna like this one 'cause it's a winner." I remember one night she invited me to dinner.

[32:06] [visual: Music video clip plays with the lyrics "She opened the door, I said at ease. That night she cooked some macaroni and cheese. I did not care, pulled up my chair, opened up my mouth, got a mouthful of hair. I said Carrie, what you put in this trash? She said I'm sorry Joseph, that's my mustache. I looked at her and I said what? She said I tried to shave but the razor wouldn't cut. I asked my dad, my mom, my pa, I got tired of listening, I crunk the chainsaw. I cranked it up, it began to run, Afroman about to have some fun. Tried to cut her hair, it began to pop—I said, it began to smoke, snap crackle pop and the chainsaw broke. I said Harry Carrie try to calm down, you done ran all the barbershops out of town. Don't get mad, don't complain."]

[32:49] AFROMAN: And she had a hairy-legged friend. I pulled her pants leg up, I said, "Go chill out with hairy-leg Charmaine." And I ended on that. And the school—the whole school—like I said, rap was a craze in the late '80s. If you attempted to do it, people would gather around you like a fight or breakdancing. People was—all the kids at the school was—I was on top of this bench with my buddy beatboxing and we just had a whole sea, the whole recess was over there and they—the whole school just went nuts when I pulled up that girl's leg and said hairy-leg Charmaine. And they was like the two school bullies. So that was like my first rap song against the bullies.

[33:30] AFROMAN: Everybody start calling her Harry Carrie. Anytime she tried to pick on anybody, they'd start singing my rap song. Like she had to chill out and start treating people nice.

[33:39] ANDREW CALLAGHAN: So you humbled the bullies. You're like a social vigilante early on in life.

[33:45] ANDREW CALLAGHAN: And that was the first time that you used those creative means to—to get over on someone who was putting you down.

[33:53] AFROMAN: Only when I have to. Only when necessary. Don't make me do it. Don't make me do it.

[33:59] AFROMAN: Only when necessary. 'Cause if it ain't necessary, I just want to get high and have some Colt 45 with two Zig-Zags. You know, I just want a nice rap. But you know—

[34:08] ANDREW CALLAGHAN: I heard even the name Afroman itself is a rebranding of—of a nickname someone tried to give you to put you down.

[34:14] AFROMAN: Yeah, uh you know, like I'm trying to make it look good like, you know, I—I didn't have no voluminous, nice afro. I had the spiders in a meeting going on, had that little intermediate situation going on. And the girl was like, "Hey you, boy! Afroman, pass this up to the front." And everybody start laughing and that name was kind of sticking. Everybody like, "Hey Afroman," they'd laugh. "Afroman! Afroman!" 'Cause everybody had bald heads in the mid-'90s. Tupac, Michael Jordan. Any serious Black man that was seriously trying to get at a good-looking Black chick, he had his hair cut and that was like requirement number one. Get a haircut. If you didn't have a decent haircut, a girl will give you a ride home, she'll give you some food, but if you thought about asking her for a number and your hair wasn't right, she—you know, she'd be like, "Uh-uh, you know, you need to go get this shagged then cleaned—uh-uh, I can't—you can't be out here with me."

[35:13] ANDREW CALLAGHAN: But you didn't fold to cultural peer pressure. You kept the afro rocking. And you owned the nickname.

[35:18] AFROMAN: Well, because of my finances. I couldn't get—I couldn't get that 10 dollar haircut every two, three days. You know what I'm saying?

[35:25] ANDREW CALLAGHAN: So if you had some money you would have been Michael Jordan bald.

[35:28] AFROMAN: Yes. If I could have—yeah, you know, I love to be fly. So if I could have been fly, I would have been fly. But I couldn't do it. And uh, I was trying to go to school, I was trying to eat, and I just couldn't get my haircut every day. And so I had a unattractive afro in the mid-'90s. And people used to call me Afroman. And then I seen a—I seen Too Short. And he was saying how he went up to girls saying, "Yo, I want your number, I want this and I want that." And he was saying how the girls told him he was too short. And the girls always told him he was too short. And he said he started putting it on hats and shirts and everything and he said it worked. So I thought I'd try that. I was trying to figure out how I could get fly with Afroman. So I noticed it was seven letters. And it had a O in the middle. I drew a afro around the O and a little stickman smiley face and I so—and then I made it Afroman. And I embraced it. I started wearing hats, I started wearing t-shirts. And then I made a rap tape and I started—I was like I couldn't fight—I couldn't fight gravity. I was like, "All right, Afroman." I start—and it started working. When I walk up to a dude clowning me with—clowning me calling me my name, he like, "You can rap Afro?" They'd put it in, check it out, be loving it. "Hey, this Afroman tape, man!" It just—it was working. It worked better than, you know, Heavenly Henry or Poetic Paul and, you know.

[36:48] ANDREW CALLAGHAN: So in between "Harry Carrie" and then owning the name Afroman, were you still making music?

[36:53] AFROMAN: Yes. Yes. Matter of fact, I was looking for a rapper name. I was gonna—I was trying to go with J-Natural. I was trying to do everything. Man, my phone's ringing like a dog, I'm sorry, I'm gonna turn this thing off.

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[39:02] ANDREW CALLAGHAN: So we talked a lot about eighth grade. The first time I smoked weed in eighth grade, I was listening to your music.

[39:06] AFROMAN: Well, I want to thank you and apologize at the same time, man. I didn't mean to influence you at such a young age.

[39:12] ANDREW CALLAGHAN: Well you didn't make me do it, but you know, it was like the essential weed music at that time. So I think people probably want to know when was the first time you smoked weed and was it a positive or negative experience?

[39:22] AFROMAN: I smoked some weed, but I wasn't getting high at first. You know what I'm saying? Like, I was smoking like some dirt. You know, when you first start smoking weed, you don't know if you're smoking some good weed or some bama, you don't even know. You could be smoking parsley. You don't even know. Until you get high, you start realizing, "Oh okay, this what it smell like, oh this what—this how I'm supposed to feel." You know when you getting ripped off or not. So at first I didn't know what I was smoking. I was—I was pulling these little joints and I was scared of some kind of crack high that I couldn't—so I didn't want to get addicted so I—I'd smoke a little bit and see, did—does it kick in 30 minutes later or, you know. I think the one time I really got high is when I had a homeboy. He had a car in his backyard with no wheels on it, it sat on bricks. He got some good weed one time. He was like, "Man, you my homeboy, I love you." He said, "Man, come over my house, man, I got a special treat." And he called his three best homies, it was me, another dude and another dude. And we was all in the back of this—we was all in this car. I'm in the front, this other dude in the front, he in the back seat. He light up four blunts. We might as well not even pass these things. The—the passing them was a joke 'cause then another one was coming and it was like a mind game or something. He say, "Don't roll down the window and waste my money." And it's like I ain't never had that much smoke. It was like stupid, like tears was coming out of my eyes, my tongue was a rug. You know what I'm saying? Like I'm like, "I gotta get out of here." And so he finally said, "Okay y'all can get out." And when we opened up that car door—

[40:55] AFROMAN: That's when I got my little dance. 'Cause I feel like the coyote on Road Runner when they slow it down.

[41:06] AFROMAN: So I remember I was walking, it felt like I was floating. Like I couldn't really feel my legs.

[41:13] AFROMAN: Yeah, yeah, yeah, 'cause I was playing football in high school. I thought you was a bum if you smoked any kind of dope. If you even if you drunk beer, I just thought you was a goofy ass, you know. I might have been, I'm gonna say 20. 'Cause I—I smoked some—some bama weed when I was 18 and I didn't—I didn't try to do it every day. I like to drink my 40s at 18. I was a 40 man, hit me a Newport, you know, I was cool.

[41:36] ANDREW CALLAGHAN: And was Colt 45 actually your favorite 40 or was that like a behind the scenes brand deal?

[41:40] AFROMAN: Man, I wanted a Eight Ball because all the—all the famous gangsters drunk Eight Ball. All the gangster rappers drunk Eight Ball. Eight Ball was the ghetto Republican beer. You was like a rich ghetto dude when you spent five dollars on a beer. When you spent five dollars on one beer, you know, five dollars was a lot of money back in the day. I couldn't afford five dollar beers. But Colt 45 cost a dollar 25. I remember I got this one song I say, "Standing in the front of the liquor store, with no dough trying to bum a four-oh. Eight Ball cost 3.84. I can't afford that, I'm young and po'. Colt 45 cost a dollar 25. And I'm trying to survive. If I ask five people for a quarter, I be just like the bathroom, out of order. I used to be bashful, used to be shy, and all that stuff but—" I could bum five quarters from some strangers outside of the gas station and get me a whole 40. And then I liked the way it made me feel. Like Eight Ball gave me like this—this bad hangover the next day. But I could pop up and play basketball after I drunk a Colt 45, you know what I'm saying? Like I didn't feel it. It was like, "Okay, everything is fine."

[42:50] ANDREW CALLAGHAN: That's a pretty special talent. You could drink a 40 and play basketball right after?

[42:59] ANDREW CALLAGHAN: And was that like out of musical passion or you just weren't feeling school?

[43:02] AFROMAN: A combination of things. Uh, my parents was breaking up. They were letting the house go in foreclosure in Palmdale. So I had to choose which parent I was going to go with, and uh it was in the middle of the school year. On top of that, I want to rap. There's no college for rappers. So I'm sitting around in school just sitting here and just, you know, douchebagging around. I could see me staying in school if there was a rap class. There's no rap class. You know, I study hip hop at home with my tapes and through the game. So if I was to be honest with myself, I was basically through with school. So my parents were leaving, my mom was going her route, my dad was going back to Mississippi, I figured I'd go down to LA and try to become a rapper.

[43:45] AFROMAN: LA's the entertainment capital. I couldn't tell myself I was going to make it musically in Mississippi versus the music capital. How do you leave LA and go to Mississippi to make it in the music business? You know what I'm saying? Like little farm boys is walking with they—with they belongings on a stick. Everybody's trying to get to LA so they can make it. Fresh out of high school, I thought my best move to go down to LA and try to make it rapping. You know, go hard and try to make it.

[44:10] ANDREW CALLAGHAN: And back then, like obviously way before the internet, what was the standard marketing protocol for putting yourself out there?

[44:16] AFROMAN: There was the Cinderella story of dropping off a tape to Dr. Dre or, you know, letting some dude in the industry hear your song. There was that. And I think that's—that's all I knew at the time. Now I knew Too Short sold tapes out the trunk. And I was willing to do that while I was waiting for a big deal. I was ready to do whatever was moving. So I was ready to go to the studio, make me some songs, make me some albums. I was ready to sell them myself. And then if I could get a deal, you know, I went with that, but if I can't, I was ready to—to keep my trunk popped on my car and keep slinging them.

[44:54] ANDREW CALLAGHAN: You mentioned style. You've always kind of had like really colorful suits and different like sort of pimp-hop type, you know. Did you listen to a lot of Bay artists? Is that what inspired a lot of your fashion or was that also happening in LA?

[45:05] AFROMAN: I take what I want from everywhere. I go shopping in the—I go shopping in the humanity store. So what I see I take. Whatever—whatever—whatever I like I take. I seen some clean preachers. I seen some pretty clean brothers. Ice-T is our player in LA. He was pretty clean. You know, we got good weather in LA. So you ain't gonna see the mink coats in LA. You ain't gonna see—I mean you might, some rich Hollywood movie star party that I can't go to coming from South Central LA. But we had Ice-T. Ice-T was the flyest player that I knew in LA. And you know, you got a little bit of the game everywhere. You know what I'm saying? You gonna have—you gonna have your fly New York cats, you gonna have your fly Atlanta brothers. Right now, I think I'm gonna give it to Chicago. You know, that's where I really seen some clean brothers.

[45:56] ANDREW CALLAGHAN: Was there somebody in Chicago that put you onto the game? Or you self-made through observation?

[46:00] AFROMAN: A little bit of both. I went through a bad divorce and I had a lady take some money from me that I didn't think she deserved. And I was just looking at all the complications I went through in my marriage. Then I look up and I'm seeing guys with, you know, five, ten women paying them, and they driving, living good. I had one woman taking half from me, and these dudes got five, ten women bringing everything to them. And I was wondering what—what I was doing wrong. So I was just fascinated. Fresh out of a divorce that broke me for some money, I'm fascinated with a guy that gets paid, you know, and he got five, ten women, you know. I'm like, "How do you do that?" Yeah, so blah blah blah.

[46:43] ANDREW CALLAGHAN: And the second part of the question, was there a person, maybe a style or game icon that put you on?

[46:48] AFROMAN: I was inspired by the whole game, but I guess Bishop Don Magic Juan. When I was sad and depressed, I'd watch him in his Rolls Royce. I'd watch him looking good and he'd be talking positive. "Man, you know, stay down, you know, uh keep your head up, if you stay ready you ain't got to get ready." It's like all them players, they had a little saying or something that—that would make you—that'd inspire you. They'll say something like, "Stay down like four flat tires. When all the buildings in New York City fall, I'm be standing tall." Just something that make you want to get up off the ground, brush yourself off and say, "You know what, let's go for it."

[47:22] AFROMAN: Yeah, I got a phrase. My phrase is—I had to outdo all the players that—that inspired me. So mine is—Kenny Red, rest in peace. I like to say, "Stay down like four flat tires." Uh, Lee Mack, rest in peace. Uh, "Stay down and come up with your money." I'm the Hungry Hustling American Dream, backslash Afro-American Wet Dream, the Rock and Roll Gangster, the Kenny Red Rest in Peace of Reefer Rap, the Don Juan of Dank, the Pimpikin of the Ink Pen, Money Q Green, you know, all—you know, there's these things. I got my lines.

[47:53] ANDREW CALLAGHAN: Who do you think's on the Mount Rushmore of old school pimping?

[47:56] AFROMAN: Okay, everybody say Iceberg Slim but I—I missed—I missed that boat. And he didn't—to me, he didn't like what he was doing, he didn't like himself, he didn't like—so I'm—me personally, I'm gonna exclude him. In my book, it's gonna be Don Juan, Kenny Red, I like Jojo, and I like Scorpio. How many people's up on—on Rushmore?

VI. The N-Word, The Micro-Nation, The Vision 48:00–1:12:00

🎭 THE PISS RAIN ARGUMENT

"I'm gonna piss on you. And I'm gonna tell you it's raining. Is that rain, just because I say it's rain?" This is the cleanest formulation of the reappropriation critique you'll hear anywhere. He salutes the attempt — "I gotta salute a brother that don't let the N-word hurt him" — and then demolishes it with the Mexican anecdote: "I think when a Mexican walked up to me and said it. I didn't like it no more." The micro-nation vision that follows is not a joke. 195 acres, fence it off, no N-word, security guards. "I'm the judge, I'm the president, I'm the army." This is the Afroman endgame: enough space that nobody can kick down your door.

[48:19] AFROMAN: And I—I like uh Pimpin Ken. I think he got a beautiful—I think he got the best mouthpiece in the game. We was just talking about dressing. My Mount Rushmore is my—I got inspiration from their dress, their wardrobe.

[48:33] ANDREW CALLAGHAN: Yeah. So just to clarify, pimping isn't cool, but pimps dress cool.

[48:38] ANDREW CALLAGHAN: And uh another thing I wanted to talk about too is uh I saw you don't say the N-word in your music. What kind of prompted that choice?

[48:44] AFROMAN: Well first of all, the N-word is the—I'm trying to find that word is said in the dictionary. It's the most offensive word in the English language. I don't like being greeted with it. I don't address my brothers and sisters with it. Like, if you're on the Lakers, you're not going to say, "Fuck the Lakers." Or if you're an Englishman, you're not going to walk around saying, "Hey, what's up Limey?" You know what I'm saying? If you're a Mexican, you're not going to walk around going, "Hey Beaner, what's happening?" You know what I'm saying? I don't feel Black people should disrespect the home team. You know, I know in America, they hear it so much. Like if I had a bunch of white—give me a bunch of white kids.

[49:23] AFROMAN: Yeah, they're all my—give them to me as babies. Right? All right. And I—when I see them I say, "Honky, honky, honky, honky, honky, honky, honky." I separate them from the older white people that love them. The older white people that's going to give them dignity and pride and say, "Hey, we're Americans, we're white people, we're—" I separate them from them people. And I got them over here in my little chicken coop. And I'm like, "You're a honky. Honky, honky, honky, honky, honky, honky, honky." What are those little white kids going to grow up saying?

[49:57] AFROMAN: And then they going to—they going to shake, they going to be like, "What's up my honky?" They going to have pride when they say it. "Hey, what's up honky?" Innocent. And uninformed 'cause I done separated them from the people that will give them the dignity and pride not to say that. So I'm thinking hundreds of years ago, the Black people that couldn't speak English. "N-word, N-word, N-word, N-word, N-word, N-word, N-word." Sometimes I watch a movie, the slave will be like, "Whose N-word is you?" You know, they don't know no better. They don't know—they don't know they're the original man God created. They don't know they invented the pyramid. They don't know the Moors took knowledge to the Greeks and—and the Egyptians took—and the Moors brought knowledge to Spain and Europe. They don't know they're these intellectual people. All they know is what this guy that don't like them told them. That's my reason why I don't like the N-word. I don't think Black people should call themselves that. I guess that's it in a nutshell, I can—

[50:49] ANDREW CALLAGHAN: I guess growing up, and I grew up in what they call a diverse environment where it was used a lot. And I was always told that it was a way of reappropriating a word that was used to dehumanize the community. So it's like by using it ourselves we're taking that power away.

[51:02] AFROMAN: Okay. All right. I'm gonna piss on you. And I'm gonna tell you it's raining. Is that rain, just because I say it's rain? No, that's piss. I salute the brothers that tried that. And I understand ain't nothing wrong—you know, like if I stick you with a pin, it's typical if you jump. I gotta salute a brother that don't let the N-word hold—hurt him. He use it, he get with it, like you can't hurt him like that. I salute that. At the same time, no.

[51:29] ANDREW CALLAGHAN: At what point in your life did you come to that conclusion?

[51:32] AFROMAN: I think when a Mexican walked up to me and said it. I didn't like it no more.

[51:38] AFROMAN: No, I left LA because of it. I didn't want to go to prison because it was too many people using the N-word that wasn't Black and I—I couldn't kill them all. So I knew I better leave before, you know.

[51:53] AFROMAN: A real Mexican don't say it. Uh, you got the—you know, like I don't know, whatever. Whatever, you know, like people hate us but they imitate us. I'm gonna say that again. People hate us but they imitate us. You know what I'm saying? My dad said Black people invented lowriding. He said it was like in the '50s and—he said Black people used to wear zoot suits. He said Black people, the Black jazz musicians, used to wear zoot suits. And he said that, you know, the Mexicans will play the oldies, Motown. They play them now, they play them—like if I dig up Smokey Robinson, it won't be a picture of Smokey Robinson on YouTube. It'll be like five cholos standing there and I'm trying to—when I pull up a Smokey Robinson video. That's how much they done like embraced and intercepted Motown and all of the—the classic soul oldies that Black Americans made. You know what I'm saying? Yo, people hate us but they imitate us. You know what I'm saying? So I was listening to that Lefty guy talk. He was like, "Yeah, in the penitentiary, we got ours, we let the Blacks know like, yo, you know, you guys are over there but we got ours." Oh but when he gets out the penitentiary, oh he wants to rap like the Black guys he want to kill in the penitentiary. No, no, no, no, no, keep that same energy when you get out the penitentiary. No, no, no, no, no, don't come over here using our rap music. You go over there and sing "La Bamba." And a Black dude wrote that from what I heard. You know what I'm saying? So I ain't mad at them, it's like just all that N-word using and then the Black people that give other races the green light to disrespect us. Like, you know, California, you know, like, you know, I love my hometown but it's a lot of stuff there, you know, that I don't like. You know what I'm saying? I'm gonna go back but like I gotta live out in the desert, I need a whole lot of space and I gotta drive around to my love, I just can't just be out with like random people drinking and just saying whatever and, you know, whatever.

[53:42] ANDREW CALLAGHAN: But you feel like the popularity of the music is the driving force behind the appropriation of Black forms?

[53:47] AFROMAN: You know, I think brothers should have thought about it. I think NWA should have been Brothers With An Attitude. Yeah, we all get it, I get it, we was all mad and—and, you know. One time I called a girl a bitch. And she turned around she said, "I'm gonna show you a bitch." You know what I'm saying? So like I think a lot of Black people kind of got that attitude like, "Oh we some N-words? Okay. All right. All right. We going to show you some N-words. We going to burn all this shit up, we going to fuck up the—" And so they just run in with that junk. But I think we should have just held onto the brothers. 'Cause now, you know, you got all kind of non-Blacks just using the N-word and, you know.

[54:26] ANDREW CALLAGHAN: I don't know if they would have got the record deal if it was BWA.

[54:28] AFROMAN: They could have—they could have said "F the police" as BWA, they would have got it.

[54:31] ANDREW CALLAGHAN: You don't think that there was like a conscious agenda behind promoting some of these words on like a corporate entertainment level?

[54:38] ANDREW CALLAGHAN: Do you think there was a conscious agenda like in promoting gangster rap in the '80s?

[54:45] AFROMAN: Yeah. If a lady take off her clothes and start wiggling right now, I'm a promoter. But if she don't take off her clothes, I can't promote her.

[54:53] ANDREW CALLAGHAN: So it falls back to individual responsibility of the person.

[54:57] ANDREW CALLAGHAN: So you mentioned NWA, you mentioned Mississippi once which—which made me think about Soulja Boy, who's also from Mississippi, and he said that he was the first viral rapper. But if I think about it, I think it would actually be you with the song "Because I Got High."

[55:13] ANDREW CALLAGHAN: Can you break down like how that song came about and then we can get into the actual mechanics of the mass spread of that song? 'Cause it was like number one in uh Belgium and 15 different countries in Europe.

[55:22] [visual: Music video clip plays with the lyrics "I was gonna go to court before I got high. I was gonna pay my child support but then I got high. No you wasn't!"]

[55:31] AFROMAN: "Because I Got High," the first YouTube was Napster. I didn't know nothing about it, I was on the verge of being homeless and everything.

[55:43] AFROMAN: No, LAX was before that. LAX is going to be in the Afroman days when I first got my nickname and everything. Yeah, yeah, okay. Uh, this is going to be after I moved back to Mississippi, I kind of gave up on LA.

[55:58] AFROMAN: Yes. I remember I gave away—I tried to sell some CDs, nobody would buy them. I got tired of toting the box around. I was just like, "Damn." So I just start giving it away to people. And they went home and put it up on the computer and uh they put it up on Napster. They had to invent the word "viral" to explain what my song had done through the computer. It was like a computer platinum. At first we had platinum. We didn't have viral. Nobody said that before 2000. They started saying it after "Because I Got High" circulated. One dude said—it was—I remember the dude, he looked like the guy on The Godfather that got mad at Michael Corleone. He goes, "He was banging cocktail waitresses two at a time." Moe—Moe Greene. Yeah, yeah. He had on some glasses like Moe Greene. He was like—he like, "You're everywhere!" He go, "Your song went viral!" And he held it with his eyes open like—I ain't never heard that word. I'm like, "What is that?" He was like, "It's like a virus."

[57:05] ANDREW CALLAGHAN: Wow. And it—it stemmed from was it a rave in New Orleans I read?

[57:08] AFROMAN: Yes, I handed out 500 CDs at a rave. All those kids went home and loaded that stuff up and it—it went around the world in like uh two, three days.

[57:20] ANDREW CALLAGHAN: And what was your initial reaction? Like how did you even like come to terms with that global reach?

[57:25] AFROMAN: Dude, I didn't even know what had happened. This dude was just pounding on my door like the British is coming or something. You know what I'm saying? He was like, "Universal want us in New York right now! We gotta get a plane!" And I'm like, "Okay, all right, all right." You know like, "Damn." And it was like it wasn't a joke, the plane tickets was there, first class, limousine picking us up, New York City. Saw Johnny Cochran in the airport, took a picture. Shit was starting to change, brother. Like I didn't know what was going on but it was crazy, it was creepy and it was big.

[57:59] AFROMAN: It must have been like uh like two, three days later. Yeah, we got the plane ticket, we flew up there, Universal was not playing.

[58:07] ANDREW CALLAGHAN: I know you're old school so you probably don't want to talk about money super openly, but was it a pretty decent check for that first signing bonus?

[58:12] AFROMAN: Yes sir. Yes sir. Let me get a quick time check right quick. I supposed to be on stage at seven.

ANDREW CALLAGHAN: All right, we are here at Afroman's first show after his victorious court case against the Adams County Sheriff's Department. It's not a big venue, we're not in an arena or a big ass theater, we're inside of a dive bar in a suburban town called Clayton, Indiana, home to about 15,000 people. And it appears that 1% maybe 5% of the town is in this bitch right now to watch Afroman do his thing. Thoughts on Afroman?

MAN: Great. We Afroman in Belleville, baby, you know. When we going to see this again?

GERALD CLAXON: My name is Gerald Claxon, this is the Clax Shack. Little small town, little hole in the wall type thing. Freedom of speech all the way through, baby. All the way.

MAN 2: Go freedom of speech, absolutely. Afroman got off his trial from freedom of speech. Honestly, I didn't know much about this court case till about two days ago.

MAN 3: Super epic, super sick. And how blessed is that it was all on camera with his cameras inside. You feel me? Like that's—I was just thinking about that earlier today. I was like, "Player, player, hell yeah."

WOMAN 2: Freedom of speech. There's still hope in this world. At least a little bit.

[59:43] AFROMAN: Oh man, there's hope for my career. Hey you know what? I feel like Tina Turner. She was old as fuck, she was basically a skeleton in some stilettos, her hair looked like somebody electrocuted every—it ain't over. Oh, you know what? It ain't over you motherfuckers. She got one more left. "What's love got to do—" Hey! It's a beautiful—

[01:00:02] ANDREW CALLAGHAN: When you pulled the guitar too, that was pretty sick.

[01:00:04] [visual: Clip of Afroman playing a guitar shaped like a marijuana leaf]

[01:00:09] ANDREW CALLAGHAN: So I had a couple follow-up questions from the interview from yesterday. When you said you went to Chicago and like met a bunch of uh cool people and stuff like that, did you ever go to a Players Ball?

[01:00:17] AFROMAN: Oh yeah man, I uh I go to all of them. Yeah man, 'cause I'm a player. Yeah, yeah. Yes, uh Don Juan he—he threw his last one. He had his leg amputated so he threw his last one, the 50th one. So I guess it's up—it's up to the younger generation of players to keep it going. I'm gonna talk to Pimp C down in San Diego and I'm gonna talk to some of the other famous players and see where they want to have them and how they want to do them. I think they planning a picnic in July.

[01:00:49] AFROMAN: A pimp, I guess like—that word can mean a lot like it can mean like a guy that beats a chick up and forces her to have sex with people and we don't do that. A woman loves a player, she can't help herself. Yeah, everybody loves a player, nobody likes a pimp cuz, you know what I'm saying? Yeah, we some players, man. A player is a nice dude, a player is a—is a ghetto politician. He's a—he's a good dude, he's smart, he—he has money, he has lots of friends, he has ideas, he throws parties, he's a—he's a wonderful social person. Yeah, he's a politician. So yeah, Players Ball.

[01:01:20] ANDREW CALLAGHAN: And do you think that culture will survive the test of time?

[01:01:23] AFROMAN: Yeah, there's going to always be a player, there's—there's always going to be a hater. So who the hater gonna hate if it ain't no player around? Somebody gotta be shining doing good so somebody got somebody to fuss and complain about. You gotta have the yin with the yang. You gotta have night and day balance off the universe.

[01:01:40] AFROMAN: Yeah, that's my man. That's the homie, you know what I'm saying? Uh, "Smoking on a dodo on his—" Blah blah blah. "Hey, I'm sipping on a Hennessy 'cause it's all—" What's up Suga Free? Suga Suga. Uh, my homie Strange was tight with him. And uh Strange took me to his show. He uh he brought me in the back was smoking weed with me. He always treated me with respect, man, and I appreciate him, man. 'Cause I—I love his music. A lot of rappers I grew up listening to, you know, I love them but you know the feeling ain't mutual, they ain't feeling me. But Suga Free's one of them rappers I grew up listening to and he like me too, you know what I'm saying? He like because I got high, he think I'm funny and everything. Cool brother, I love Suga Free, man.

[01:02:24] AFROMAN: I didn't. You know, he stayed on my street. He stayed on my street. I—you know, I lived off 69th and Harvard.

[01:02:29] ANDREW CALLAGHAN: So your dad in moving you to Palmdale when you were 11, do you feel like it's a stretch to say that that might have saved your life?

[01:02:34] AFROMAN: I'm gonna say yeah. I was too alpha male, I was probably gonna get it. I—you know, I might have made it. A lot of my homies made it through, they still around today. And they banged hard every day in South Central. I'm thinking me, the way I rap, talk, dance, threw up gang signs, spray painted on the wall. Too active. Cuz, yeah, I didn't back down. I was bony, my Jerry curl was too long. Somebody probably would have got me, man. Or I might have made it, I don't know. My dad didn't take that chance. Once he did his research, we was—we was out of there.

[01:03:06] ANDREW CALLAGHAN: What percentage of—of people who were active during the '80s during your time in South Central do you think are still around today? Is it half or you think it's even less?

[01:03:14] AFROMAN: My homies were survivors. My homie—my homie Shady Mac died of natural causes. We uh we put him down the other day. But all my homies are still alive. One—one of my homies went to the penitentiary. They dodged some bullets, they uh they some matadors. You know what I'm saying? You know they tricked the bull and they—they stuck him with the sword at the end. Like they still alive. Uh, Two-Tone, he still alive, he he live in the set right now. I pay his rent for him every day. "Oh Hungry, hey man, hey Fro, I need a new Cadillac, man." Yeah, but—

[01:03:43] ANDREW CALLAGHAN: So even though you moved to Palmdale, you didn't—you didn't sever those lifelong bonds.

[01:03:47] AFROMAN: I couldn't. I was a Eight-Tray Gangster. Like, I wasn't gonna take my khakis off for nothing. You know what I'm saying? Like, you know, I was in Palmdale but in my mind I was still a Crip. I was still from Eight-Tray Gangster. And uh that's how I carried myself. I dressed up every day, I got up every morning, ironed my khakis, ironed my t-shirt, went to the Slauson Swap Meet every chance I could, you know, went to see the homies every chance I could. Yeah, you can ask anybody from Palmdale. "Oh Joby, yeah, he Eight-Tray Gangster, yeah, LA, South Central, woo-ti-woo."

[01:04:16] ANDREW CALLAGHAN: It's interesting 'cause like fast forward now, Lancaster and Palmdale have some of like the highest murder rates in the state. And uh a lot of LA families now got relocated from places like South Central, especially—

[01:04:27] AFROMAN: Yeah man, you know the funny part is, the worst gangbanger in LA, he fantasizes about retiring in Palmdale. But the whole city is doing that. So a gangbanger go to Palmdale to get away from gangs, and there's a million other gangbangers there too trying to get away from gangs. So you go up to the gas station, you get in the worst gang fight shootout in your life in Palmdale. 'Cause in LA, everything's organized, right? Every gang is in their neighborhood. So if you're from that hood, you can get peace in your hood. In Palmdale, Lancaster, you move into a little apartment, that's not a certified hood. You see what I'm saying? Like, your gang doesn't run that area. Different gang members is moving into apartment complexes. A Crip upstairs, Blood downstairs, 18th Street down the hall, MS-13 over here. You go to your car to bring in the groceries, man, you got all kind of shit going on. Them sheriff cars flying all up and down the street in Palmdale.

[01:05:17] ANDREW CALLAGHAN: Did you see the video that came out of Cowboy from the '60s like now living far out in the desert like past Apple Valley like out there on a private compound with like six acres like by himself in a trailer?

[01:05:28] AFROMAN: That's how you do it, brother. That's how you do it. I bought 195 acres. I want a real hood. I want a real country that I control. Like my land is my country. I'm the judge, I'm the president, I'm the army, I'm the police, I'm the judge. I put like to put a fence up around my—my 195 acres.

[01:05:45] ANDREW CALLAGHAN: I can see you being the president of a micro-nation. Have you heard of those before?

[01:05:50] ANDREW CALLAGHAN: No, like you can declare your property a nation, a micro-nation. You can have your own like passport stamp process, you can have law enforcement for non-violent crimes, you can have your own currency. You can do all those things. I can kind of picture you. They have one in—called Molossia outside of Reno where this guy named Kevin has like a 20-acre property, he dresses like a North Korean president or whatever you call him, Supreme Leader all day.

[01:06:15] AFROMAN: No N-word. Black people used to be slaves in America. I believe about 30% of white Americans could afford to have slaves. Which leaves 70% middle-class white people who didn't have slaves. These people lived in cities. The 30% that had slaves had big farms. When slavery was abolished and they told the slaves that they couldn't have them on their property anymore, these slaves migrated into the cities where the middle-class white people live. Where the 70% middle-class white people live. Of course, the middle-class white people don't want the free slaves to think that they are equivalent to them. They don't want to eat with the slaves, they don't want the slaves sitting next to them. The middle-class white people, they move out of the inner city. The city they built for themselves, but they wanted to get away from the slaves. So they left and they built suburbs and they built all these other communities. And they left the inner city for the—the newly arrived freed slaves. They called the older buildings that they done already lived in, all the dilapidated buildings, the ghetto. They call this the Black neighborhood. A Black neighborhood in America was never designed by Black people for Black people. It's just like this leftover garbage thing. You know what I'm saying? So as far as I'm concerned, a young Black baby don't have a decent environment to come up in. Too many evil spirits have access to a young Black child. There's no healthy place for him to grow up. I would like to have a whole bunch of land, like to fence it off, and all the Black people that don't like using the N-word, they don't refer to their brothers and sisters as the N-word, they don't want the N-word uh being said to their children. I would set up a nation for them. And I would exclude the self-proclaimed N-word. God bless him, I'll do business with him, if the world attack Black people as a whole, I will help him in battle, but when peace arrives I will separate myself from this man. I believe he contaminates and poisons the American Black soul. And I create an environment where a young Black person can grow up, know that they are a brother, they are a Afro-American. And I would nurture and raise a good citizen. And then I'd let him know, outside of this fence, the people outside of this fence are going to address you with the most offensive word in the English language. But just know that's not you. And just know not to do nothing with these type of people, don't trust a person that calls you that, you know, blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah. That's one of the main rules that I would have in my community. And then all the other sensible laws. Like of course, don't steal, don't kill. But the only one that I think I'd have is like you can't say the N-word. And if somebody invites somebody over and they use the N-word, I'd have my own security guards pull up and ask that person to leave our environment.

[01:09:20] ANDREW CALLAGHAN: Would you allow white liberal visitors and volunteers?

[01:09:24] AFROMAN: Yes. You can—you can come visit. You can come visit. And matter of fact, we actually need some white residents. Because if the government find out that it's all Black people living here, they might fly over the top and just blow us up.

[01:09:34] ANDREW CALLAGHAN: I'm trying to think if that's been attempted before. You had the New Africa Republic in the Southeast. Yeah, Black Hammer in Colorado, but that was kind of like uh poisoned by non-profit money. And then you have the Gullah Geechee Nation in the Sea Islands in South Carolina. And I think they're trying to build something like an intentional community with more direct connections to Africa.

[01:10:02] AFROMAN: From what I understand, Africans sold Black people around the world. So I don't even really want to call myself African-American. I'm still a Afro-American. I know I'm of African descent and like I say, if the world wants to kill Black people all at one time, I'm down to help my African brothers, sisters fight. I don't want to patronize backstabbers and betrayers. I don't want to patronize the people that betrayed me and call myself African. And then they get this arrogance like we're trying to be like them. They want to rap like us, they want to be cool like us. And I'm not mad at them, I just—I'm a Afro-American. I am an American. You wouldn't take a lion out of the zoo and put him back in the wild. But you know, a person to tell me to go back to Africa. I can't. I don't know what's going on over there. I don't know. I'm an American. I can survive in America, I know America. This is what I know. So I'm looking for Afro-Americans. I'm with the good people. I'm with humanity. Just 'cause you're Black, you might not be a good man. You might be a bad man. So if you—I'm not with nobody bad. And I'm not bad—I'm not down with no bad Black people, I'm not down with no bad white people, I'm not down with no bad Mexicans, I'm not down with nothing bad. I'm down with everything good. Afro-Americans need a home, we've been misplaced. If the government and society doesn't give me some land or something, I'll go buy it. I'll build it. The Chinese man don't come up to me and ask me to build China for him. He goes and he builds it for himself.

[01:11:25] ANDREW CALLAGHAN: We just visited a uh whites-only community in Arkansas.

[01:11:28] AFROMAN: Yeah. I'm—I'm with it. I'm with it. I don't mind them having a whites only, but just don't get mad when I have a Black one. And what I believe is this: if you're a white extremist, you have the right to find you some land and be extreme. I got the right to find me some land and be extreme. But we both should be able to come to a neutral zone and in that neutral zone we should get along. We should both be able to go to Walmart.

[01:11:51] ANDREW CALLAGHAN: So Walmart is the racial pacification zone, like the DMZ.

[01:11:54] AFROMAN: Well, it's an example. It's an example. You know what I mean though, the public, the third space. It's like this: when I go to the airport, I know I gotta compromise everything. 'Cause I'm—I'm around everybody. You go to the airport, I gotta share—this dude might be a—he might be something I don't like. But we're at the airport. We need—we gotta get along, we gotta fly. This is not the time, place, it's boom. There need to be places like that. And then when you're ready to be extreme, go to your section and be extreme. And that goes for me too. When I'm ready to be Afro-American and uh I'm ready to play my soul music and—and eat my collard greens and cornbread and pick my afro and say right on and hop my lowrider, I need my section where I don't disturb my white brother that may not like that—that loud rap music. He may not like all the cars slamming and hopping and all that type stuff. He needs to breathe, he needs his environment. I need my environment. You go to the zoo, every animal has their own little environment. If you're a polar bear, they hook up the refrigerator for you because you're a different animal than this lion over here. This lion say turn that air off, man, it's cold in this damn place. You know what I'm saying?

VII. Marriage, Divorce, and the Player Philosophy 1:12:00–1:28:00

🌧️ THE FOREMAN DOCTRINE ON WOMEN

This section is going to make some people uncomfortable, and that's part of why it matters. Afroman's philosophy on marriage is deeply informed by watching his parents split — his mom "unconsciously broke up" with his dad by loading up college courses and work hours until she was never home. His dad's summary: "I ain't saying you ain't working. All I'm saying is I don't see you." From this he derives a transactional view of relationships that sounds like player philosophy but is actually grief economics. The Bishop Don Magic Juan stuff is aspirational armor over a divorce wound. He's aware of this. The vulnerability is right there if you listen for it.

[01:12:56] ANDREW CALLAGHAN: But going back to Palmdale though, you talked about how suburbs were built to escape Black migration out of fear of retribution in the inner cities after—

[01:13:03] AFROMAN: No, they just didn't want to be—they never feared paying them back. They don't fear that now, they're not going to pay Black people. But they didn't want to be around them.

[01:13:12] ANDREW CALLAGHAN: But there's some speculation that I've seen before that the gentrification of Los Angeles and other cities can be seen as like a reverse white flight. Because now that the cities are cleaning up and integrating, you have suburban youth flocking to the cities to find culture and in turn the price gets raised. And uh I'm wondering if you know about the Cash 4 Homes program and how they were basically convincing families in South LA and elsewhere to move to Palmdale and Lancaster uh and offering them like briefcases full of cash to displace them.

[01:13:39] AFROMAN: Yeah, yeah. What I heard was, you know, at first white people left South Central LA. They said Black people couldn't come west of the 110 freeway. My dad told me that white boys used to chase him out of Compton. I'm gonna repeat that. My dad told me white boys used to chase him out of Compton across Imperial to Watts. White people moved to the suburbs. White people gave up Compton. Gave that big court building to the Black people, they like, "All right." They gave up Compton, they gave up South Central, and they went wherever they went. Let's say Palmdale, let's say Simi Valley, all them outskirts cities. Then they want to blow they brains out from—from that traffic every day. So now after about 20 years, 20, 40, 50 years of that traffic, white people are saying, "Look, put the gang members and the Black people out here in the desert and we'll stay back in the city and don't have to drive that much." So I hear that the gentrification and—and all of this stuff is going on. I was in Inglewood, I seen a white girl on a skateboard with a dog pulling her.

[01:14:36] AFROMAN: Wow. I was like, "What is she doing?" You know what I'm saying? I was like—you know, I mean, you know, God—okay, that's cool. You know, I was just, you know, but it's just like Inglewood? All right, damn. Yeah.

[01:14:50] ANDREW CALLAGHAN: So getting to another theme which is uh divorce. Heard you mention it twice today. Seems like you had two particular divorces in your life. One was the divorce of your parents that kind of prompted you to drop out of high school and take music more seriously, then you had your divorce with I guess your first wife later in time that prompted you to travel around, meet different players and kind of start getting your style turned up. Can you tell me about the impact of that first one?

[01:15:14] AFROMAN: Uh yeah, you know like uh I trip on how soon as you get married, your wife can stop doing her duties but you can't stop doing yours. And if you leave, you gotta pay even more money. Marriage is like a short end of the stick thing for the man. Marriage is good for the woman. 'Cause soon as she get married, she can stop going to the gym, she can eat, you know, fart on you late at night, don't cook for you, go fuck other dudes, then what are you going to do? Divorce me and give me half your shit? You know what I'm saying? So my mom was real religious and she thought it was a sin to—to go with a girl and not be married with her. Not be married to her. Well my mom and my dad was divorced so I didn't get a chance to hang out with my dad too much until after he moved to Mississippi. So later on in Mississippi after I got married, my dad was like, "Son, now watch it, she gonna try to divorce you to take a lot of money." He start advising me and—and he taught me a whole lot. So I had to learn, "Oh, that's why women want to get married." Uh, it's a low-key hustle slash lick. You know, they have divorce parties now. Like, what the fuck you mean? You know what I'm saying?

[01:16:18] ANDREW CALLAGHAN: So when you sign that marriage contract, it's a prenuptial agreement that automatically—

[01:16:22] AFROMAN: Man, I don't—I don't—I believe the right woman can get around that. The right lawyer, right woman, you know, people bias. Look at what they was trying to do to me in court. Like, you know, them cops walked after beating Rodney King's ass. So the wrong judge, wrong court, wrong woman, that prenuptial agreement don't mean nothing. They—they—they'll get it still.

[01:16:43] AFROMAN: I do. I believe in—I believe in—look here, homie. Look here. I seen a teacher—I seen a teacher whisper in somebody's ear. He go, [whispering sounds]. He go, "Tell it to the person behind you." He started at the end of the class. And they passed that shit up and down the aisle. And by the time it got over there, it was nothing like what he said over here. You see what I'm saying? So like, what did God really say? Who really wrote the Bible? Like—like marriage is cool but maybe you ain't even—like what the hell. If I like a girl and she like me, we should go together. And what I like about this is soon as she stop loving me and stop doing right, I can do the same. Now where all this paperwork come in at? You know what I'm saying? "Oh she can go suck everybody's dick but I still gotta pay her and—" No, that sound like a bad deal. I was just thinking like I could have a whole bunch—I got this one girl right now. She does everything right. She caters to me, she cooks, she brings my food to me, she sews my buttons on my suits when I pop them. I'll go talk to some other girls, they'll be like snorting coke and drinking and loud and using the N-word. And you know what? There's a side of me that—that feels like I want to be with this chick.

[01:17:54] ANDREW CALLAGHAN: You want to be with not—not the crazy one, but the one who helps you out with your—

[01:17:57] AFROMAN: Yeah. If two people want to be with each other, they'll be with each other. You see what I'm saying? Yeah. If she wants to be with you, she'll be with you. And she might only want to be with you six months. She might only want to be with you a year. She might only want to be with you two years. Me and my homies from—from 83rd, we still homies to this day. We go over each other house 'cause we want to be over there. We been friends 30-whatever, damn near 40 years. We want to go over each other house, we want to crack them beers, we want to shake each other hand, play our music, we want to see each other. And when a girl want to see you and you want to be with her, that's marriage to me. All these paperwork and all these strangers that come into your life telling you you need to give her this and that and—there's a side of me at 51 years old in 2026 that—that thinks something is fishy. I like the Bible, but then you know I'm hearing all this stuff about King James. A lot of stuff is making sense now. "Slaves obey your masters, turn the other cheek." You know, "How come you don't turn the other cheek?" Yo. So I'm not saying it's false, but I believe that God will sympathize with my confusion. If I created a creature, I would understand that he don't understand. God created me, so he know I can't verify all this stuff everybody's hollering. So I think he's going to look at my heart and—and do what he's going to do from there. So marriage to me is me and a young lady wanting to be with each other. And that can stop anytime. Now your girl can break up with you in her mind, go out start fucking everybody, sucking they dick. Now you still married on paperwork but that spirit is gone. So as far as I'm concerned, fuck this paperwork, why even have it in the first place? Bitch, you gonna love me today? Oh you don't love me tomorrow? Okay, well we going to—we going to do a easier divorce. We going to do the kind of divorce we used to do in the third grade. Make sure the teacher ain't looking. [gestures middle finger]. That's the divorce. It's simple. It ain't all this traumatizing shit, man.

[01:20:03] ANDREW CALLAGHAN: I guess like the core question is, does that belief about marriage more stem from you observing your parents or is it more like your experience with marriage?

[01:20:10] AFROMAN: Uh, everything. My parents really ain't got nothing to do 'cause my mom's a good lady and uh I understand what my dad saying. My dad was illustrating to me how my mom didn't spend any time with him. He said she always down at the job, she running down to the school. My mom low-key unconsciously broke up with my dad, she didn't want to be around him. So she'd load up her college courses, she'd stay at work, then she'd open up a business. And my dad like, "Where she at?" You know, so it's like this: they wasn't broke up but they was broke up. If we ain't together, we apart. So if you like me, you like me. You gonna be where you want to be. The player say she choose. The player say a female choose. The player fix himself up and he stand up tall, he stand up right, and a woman look, she like that one. Even in animal kingdom. I guess this cheetah, she was giving off a scent and it was like five male leopards following her. She stop and turn around, they'd all sit and look like, "We ain't with—like we don't smell your pussy, we're not following you." So finally she indicated to the one she wanted. The other ones kind of congratulated him and he moved onto the top of the hill and mounted her. A female chooses, even in animal world. So I believe in getting chose. And I believe in two people being where they want to be.

[01:21:29] ANDREW CALLAGHAN: Going back to your parents, did you feel like that emotional distance that your mom created like kind of broke your dad's spirit a bit at that time? Like did you notice—

[01:21:36] AFROMAN: It's mathematics. My dad tell me how his boss used to bust him. My dad used to work for Caltrans. And he said he had this bush in the—on the freeway he used to get the best sleep in. My dad said he had a supervisor that busted him without busting him. He said, "Foreman, look here. I ain't saying you ain't working. All I'm saying is I don't see you." Fuck where you was at, fuck what I can't prove, I don't see you. So my dad come home from work, you know he married, but where's my wife? Is she here? She gone. So I'm married and single at the same time. I'm married to some paperwork sitting in the courthouse, but my actual woman is moving around, she's not with me, she didn't choose me, she chose to be somewhere else. Hey man. So you know, marriage is a action, you know, it's a every day action. You can be married to me today and—and you not married to me tomorrow. Yeah.

[01:22:34] ANDREW CALLAGHAN: I just remember yesterday you were talking about the ideal marriage situation is like the man goes out hustles, gets it, brings it home, and the woman holds it down. You know, I wonder if that was informed by like your experience watching the opposite happen.

[01:22:45] AFROMAN: I like to say a marriage is an institution. A marriage is a company. Your family last name is a company name brand. Your company helps your family survive. Your wife, she feed you, she wash your clothes, she pack your lunch, she takes care of your kids, cleans your house. You don't want to come home to no laundry, dirty dishes. You know what I'm saying? She is your vice president. You're running the world, she's running the house. And it's a company. That's why when you break up, they make you give her half of it because she helped you run that company. And now that she's parting ways with you, you need to give her something that's going to help her as she looks for another business partner.

[01:23:28] ANDREW CALLAGHAN: Do you think it's natural for a man to be with just one woman for his whole life?

[01:23:32] AFROMAN: Okay, I ask myself, why does a bull have 12 heifers? Now I eat a bull on a—on a plate and this man has a better sex life than me. There's a side of me that says I can have as many women as I want. The key is getting the women to—if I can talk a woman into accepting other women, then okay, now what's your problem? Excuse me, we're living life, liberty and my pursuit of happiness. I heard it was immoral, I heard God don't like it. At the same time, I see—I see bulls with 12 heifers. A alpha male fights you over all his women. If you can take care of a woman, why should another man enjoy what he's not paying for, what he's not supporting?

[01:24:11] ANDREW CALLAGHAN: But you—you felt like true romantic love before, right? Like head over heels, butterflies, full emotional investment.

[01:24:18] ANDREW CALLAGHAN: And like do you feel like that always expires? Like at some point?

[01:24:22] AFROMAN: There is a way to nurture it. It's a way to keep things healthy. I believe uh people should have two rooms. They should have two rooms and a center room.

[01:24:32] AFROMAN: Yeah. I believe there should be a—a center room, then there should be a his and her room. There's a side of me that think uh both people should still masturbate. How can you make me happy when you don't even make yourself happy? How can you give me something you don't have? You don't love yourself but you going to come loving on me. You know, you ain't took a bath, you ain't got no rest, you ain't shampooed your hair, but you ain't brushed your teeth but you want to kiss me.

[01:24:59] ANDREW CALLAGHAN: It'd be nice to have separate bathrooms too 'cause you know girls always have so much shit in there. I can do seven in one, or maybe 12 in one, every body wash purpose.

[01:25:07] AFROMAN: I—I suggest to every man have a house in his company. I believe a man should keep all his important stuff in his company. Everything you have in the same house with the lady should be disposable so like if she crosses you, you can just hang up the phone and you don't even gotta go back there no more. She can burn that little weenie shirt she got hanging in the closet. You know what I'm saying? But she can't get a hold of your birth certificate, you know what I'm saying? You got your house deeds and keep your bases covered. Yeah, definitely.

[01:25:33] ANDREW CALLAGHAN: So yesterday we kind of concluded with talking about "Because I Got High" dropping. You go to New York, you get this fat publishing check, your life pops off fast. What's a way that you splurged? Did you save or were you like going party mode for those couple years?

[01:25:46] AFROMAN: Well, I put the money up and I let Universal have too much access to it. They fucked it off when I went on tour. You know, uh live and learn. They was giving me big money so I didn't want to go against them. So I didn't know when to say no. I didn't know when to put my foot down at first.

[01:26:00] ANDREW CALLAGHAN: Like in what sense? Like what kind of things would they request of you?

[01:26:03] AFROMAN: Uh, they wanted—they gave me the check but they didn't let it go, they was holding it as they gave it to me. They was like, "We want to put this in a joint account so this guy here can pay your bills while you're on tour and woo-ti-woo." They was saying stuff like that. If I do it now, I wouldn't have a joint account with them. I say, "Hey, let go of the check. Let go of it. All right, thank you." And then I wouldn't go on tour. I'd take their check, get on my airplane, fly back home to my bank and deposit it into my bank with no—with no whatever from them.

[01:26:31] ANDREW CALLAGHAN: Did you move from Hattiesburg to LA after this whole global—

[01:26:34] AFROMAN: No, I stayed in Hattiesburg. I went out to the country and bought me some bigger land.

[01:26:38] ANDREW CALLAGHAN: So you went out to the country. Uh you never had like a urge to move to Hollywood or do something like that?

[01:26:42] AFROMAN: You know, I get them urges. I done got addicted to—to space and peace. And uh I'm over the whole village people life. Like, I think people are too close to each other. All the peace I feel right now, I wish I could give to every other human being. I really think we all need about 100 acres a piece. Go see people when you want to, but everybody just need that peace.

[01:27:06] ANDREW CALLAGHAN: So throughout the entire I guess post-fame process, you never moved to a major city to like buy a condo by the water?

[01:27:12] AFROMAN: Nah man, 'cause uh I'm living too big. Man, I got a garage big as this place right here. If not a little bit bigger. Where am I put all my cars? You know, I'm a LA boy, you know I can't leave my lowriders in the snow. I want space. And I can't get no space in a city. A city is where a rich man warehouses labor. You ever seen that movie Trading Places?

[01:27:36] AFROMAN: Duke and Duke, did they live in Philadelphia? No way. No, they got in they Rolls Royce and they was way out somewhere. And then when they was ready to manipulate their laborers, they hop in the back of they Rolls Royce and they sail into the city where everybody's piled up and they manipulate people. "Hey you, you're broke, your rent's high, come here, jump on one foot." You know, that type stuff.

[01:27:59] ANDREW CALLAGHAN: It's kind of crazy how you talk about how you love space and peace, but you also tour more than most rappers ever have. Like I—I saw the obviously with all the coverage of the trial, I think when they were grilling you they were asking you how often do you perform every year. And you said hundreds of times per year.

VIII. Because I Got High — The First Viral Moment 1:28:00–1:38:00

CLINICAL — THE NAPSTER MOMENT

"They had to invent the word 'viral' to explain what my song had done through the computer." This is historically defensible. "Because I Got High" spread through Napster in 2001, before "viral" was common internet vocabulary. 500 CDs handed out at a New Orleans rave → loaded onto Napster → global in 72 hours → Universal Records calling → first class to New York → Johnny Cochran in the airport. This is the pre-YouTube, pre-social-media version of going viral. Soulja Boy claims first viral rapper. Afroman's claim is stronger by seven years.

[01:28:22] AFROMAN: I think 250 shows was—was being modest. I doubt if I take 65 days off in a year.

[01:28:29] ANDREW CALLAGHAN: This makes sense why you like space and peace so much. It's a necessary component to your volume of touring.

[01:28:35] AFROMAN: Man, you can say that, but it's—it's like when I'm done, I'm done. Like if I'm not getting paid, I'm home. That's my thing. I send people to the store. I don't want to go in public. If I'm not getting paid, I'm at home.

[01:28:48] ANDREW CALLAGHAN: One of the best things about last night too was just seeing how stoked each person was at the bar that you were there. You're like at the top of the news cycle right now, technically I bet you could probably sell out like a multi-thousand person venue in LA or something like that. But you're here in Clayton, Indiana at a dive bar that looks like it's only had a—a handful of live performances. But now Afroman, man of the hour there, and it was cool because I felt like each person there is going to be a lifelong fan. 'Cause they're like, "Yo, Afroman came to our town." To you what's the importance of—of hitting small town dive bars and those kind of venues?

[01:29:16] AFROMAN: I love small towns. They're easy to promote in. It's easy to be a big deal. The people are grateful because they don't get that much entertainment. So they—they're not too good to dance, they're not too good to have a good time. But if you go to Vegas, you know, people sit back and smoke—smoke a cigarette looking at you in the corner and shit. So that's what I like about a small town. They don't mind getting a lot of merchandise and getting a picture with you and really experiencing you, you know what I'm saying? What I didn't realize was, it's the small towns that make your star go on Hollywood Boulevard. I'm from LA, couldn't get no record deal, nothing. I went to them little small towns in Mississippi, they flew me out for the Grammy. The red carpet. All those little towns that I played told Hollywood, "Hey, this guy is a star." Hollywood go, "Oh." See, LA is a city you go to after you make it. You don't try to make it from LA. That's the part I didn't get. That's a retirement—that's a fame retirement city. You know, 'cause everybody's going to go to—all the little town people are going to go visit LA and they're going to walk the Hollywood strip. So Hollywood has to say, "All right, look, we got a bunch of country fuckers flying into town. We need something they recognize and like. Oh, they like Larry the Cable Guy, put his star right here. Oh, now the country people can—can pose by the Larry the Cable—oh everybody likes Ice Cube, everybody likes Snoop Dogg, put them a star here so everybody come look at his star. Oh well they like Afroman, put his star here."

[01:30:51] AFROMAN: No. I'm apply, I'm—I think I might can ask for it now. Yeah. Yeah.

[01:30:56] [visual: Andrew Callaghan addressing the camera on the Hollywood Walk of Fame]

ANDREW CALLAGHAN: Yo, so I'm here at the Hollywood Walk of Fame and I just called the office and asked them what it would take to get a star of my own. And you're never going to believe what they told me. They told me that I had to do a show in Phoenix, Arizona this month at the Celebrity Theatre on April 24th, and that I had to bring all the native homies out to really make it a goddamn movie in the Southwestern Plateau. That's right, you heard it here first. C5 Carnival is coming to the Big AZ, the Big P as I call it. And not just me, but also Hunter motherfucking Biden will be in the building. Indigenous Enterprise and myself will be in the building. Screening the pilot for a TV show in which I personally executive produced and kind of starred in. And the homie Nataani Means also playing a set. So we have four heavy hitters, two documentaries, one talent show coming to Phoenix. Buy yourself a ticket. Arizona on top. You know what time it is.

[01:32:02] ANDREW CALLAGHAN: All right, you ready to get into the trial? Now that we got some of that stuff covered. I appreciate it, man. Thanks for answering all those questions. I just got a lot of shit I was curious about so I'm happy we got to bounce all that off before we get into the big story of the day. But before we get into that, what role did 9/11 play in your life?

[01:32:15] AFROMAN: I believe it distracted the day that was supposed to belong to me. Like I was supposed to own the news cycle that next day.

[01:32:25] AFROMAN: Me. I did the Craig Kilborn show. It was hot, I was the talk of the nation. I was the talk of the world. I was the talk of the world. Nothing was bigger than "Because I Got High" except the fucking Empire State Building crumbling to the ground. I could not compete with that. Oh my god. All right, RIP to all those who passed away. Yes, yes, yes.

[01:32:52] ANDREW CALLAGHAN: All right. Into the trial. What was their justification for the raid?

[01:32:55] AFROMAN: A unconfidential informant got into some trouble. She just to get the handcuffs off of her, she told them that I had all kind of weed, kidnapping victims, just the most unbelievable stuff ever. And that same day with no research, they get like a quick ass search warrant signed. They came over um, you know, to my house based on that lady's words. I figured if she was going to lie on me she'd tell a believable lie, but she just jumped on the craziest, goofiest stuff. "He got a dungeon, kidnapping victims."

[01:33:29] AFROMAN: A dungeon. Wow. So they came over my house looking for a dungeon and looking for kidnapping victims. You know what I'm saying? Plus they already didn't like me anyway, you know. I see they facial expressions when I'm around town. I speak to them they don't speak back and, you know, that whole thing.

[01:33:44] ANDREW CALLAGHAN: Yeah, I think myself and a lot of people wondered, what was the extent of your interactions with the Adams County Sheriff's Department prior to the raid?

[01:33:52] AFROMAN: Well, people was breaking in my house when I went on tour. The insurance people will pay me back if I could just turn in a police report. I try to get a police report, mugs don't come out till like a week later. He takes my report and I ask him for a copy, but he don't give it to me. I ask at the station and—so I never got the money to reimburse me because they never would give me the report. Like I stopped calling them. Like I used to call up there consistently just check on the progress of my investigation. And uh they be getting getting hostile because I was consistent. "Hey listen, if you call up here again, it will get addressed." I'm like, you know, he's just setting up, you know, a foundation for a fight now, you know, so I like, "All right." I just stopped calling them. I figured I'd put up my cameras and whoever steal from me, we'll figure out something. You know what I'm saying?

[01:34:39] AFROMAN: No. No, 'cause I didn't have no cameras when I was getting broke into. That's why I put up cameras. 'Cause I didn't know who was breaking in my house.

[01:34:49] AFROMAN: Uh, you know, we might have a couple hundred thousand. It's the whole Adams County. There's like five little cities in Adams County. There's little city of Winchester, little city of Seaman, little city of West Union, little city of Manchester. So I'm gonna say two to 300,000 people, but possibly less.

[01:35:06] ANDREW CALLAGHAN: People were breaking into your house because they knew like, "Yo, that's Afroman's house, he's probably got money in there"?

[01:35:10] AFROMAN: Little bit of everything, man. You know what I'm saying? They knew I was Afroman, then they—they might have been broke on some dope. They know I got some weed in there or something, you know. Yeah, everybody know, "Oh he's gone, he's on tour."

[01:35:21] ANDREW CALLAGHAN: But you had never been like arrested or anything by this department beforehand.

[01:35:25] ANDREW CALLAGHAN: So I'm just trying to figure out why they would engage in such a—an outrageous raid.

[01:35:31] AFROMAN: Well, I'm gonna tell you something. One time my ex-wife, she kicked down my door. I called the police on her. They take a long time to come, they never come. And when I say when they finally get there I told them I wanted to press charges, they told me they didn't have no room in the jail. If that would have been me kicking down somebody's door, first of all I would have got shot. For some reason, I notice, they always got room in the jail for me. If they ain't got no room in the jail, they'll make me spend the night in the back of the squad car. At first I thought they was racist, but now that I talked to all the white people that live there, what I realize is they're just corrupt. They might call me the N-word or something but it—they just corrupt, dude. You know what I'm saying? They—they doing white people bad, they doing people bad. They doing tax-paying law-abiding citizens bad. That's why we the people got to get in there and fix that.

[01:36:21] ANDREW CALLAGHAN: So you think when you say corruption, that kind of suggests that they broke into your house or raided your home just to steal stuff. 'Cause if it's not racially or fame motivated, like if it's not, you know, racially charged, I'm trying to figure out—

[01:36:33] AFROMAN: Well, you know, it's a little bit of all of that. Now who we talking about breaking in my house? We talking about thieves or the police?

[01:36:37] ANDREW CALLAGHAN: The Adams County Sheriff's Department. Basically, what was their intention in doing this raid? Like what was their motive?

[01:36:42] AFROMAN: They—they wanted millions of pounds of whatever drug they was looking for.

[01:36:47] AFROMAN: Yes. Okay, gotcha. And they thought I had kidnapping victims. They thought I had people tied up in a dungeon.

[01:36:52] ANDREW CALLAGHAN: And your kids and partner were home at the time, yeah?

[01:36:57] AFROMAN: Okay, you know, of course it was shocking, scary and traumatizing, you know, to say the least.

[01:37:03] ANDREW CALLAGHAN: What did your kids tell you about how it impacted them?

[01:37:05] AFROMAN: Like they don't know if it's—if it's just because I'm Black or not, you know, they—they see what being Black can bring them. It's like this deep thought thing. It's this inescapable reality. It's like sometimes when I speak to them, they got this low tone when they speak back. "Hey, how y'all doing?" They be like, "Hi Dad." And I don't know, you know, I'm like, "Yeah, I'm sorry." I like, "You know, I'm sorry. This—this is what we gotta deal with. And I'm sorry." It's just that thing that they gotta face. That's why I attack these cops, 'cause I gotta make a better world for my kids. I don't want these people knocking on my kids' door like that. I did what I could. You know, a turtle goes in his shell, a skunk stinks. Well I'm a rapper, I—I—I rap my ass off about them damn cops, you know what I'm saying? Because I don't like what they did to my children. You know, speaking and smiling at the school but then showing up to shoot their daddy. You know what I'm saying?

[01:37:57] ANDREW CALLAGHAN: How many kids did you have living there at the time?

IX. The Raid and The Trial 1:38:00–2:00:00

🎭 THE BULLY PARADOX

"Who is the biggest pussies in court crying about they feelings hurt? Is it the rapper that don't got nothing but some dirty rap songs, or is it the big bad boys with the AR-15s?" The entire trial section is Afroman describing the structural asymmetry between police power and civilian recourse — and then watching that asymmetry invert in a courtroom. The officers who kicked down his door, disconnected his cameras, and pointed rifles at his children spent four years in court claiming their feelings were hurt by "Mama's Lemon Pound Cake." The jury saw through it. Eight hours of deliberation, zero dollars awarded.

[01:38:10] ANDREW CALLAGHAN: You mentioned that low tone, you noticed like emotional and psychological changes?

[01:38:14] AFROMAN: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I—I know—I know deep depression. Stuff that depress you, just knowing we're all going to die one day. Everywhere you look, just knowing you a target. Just knowing that a heat-seeking missile of hate is—is following you through your whole life. And then when they realize, you know, like damn, this is—this is the path I gotta walk.

[01:38:35] ANDREW CALLAGHAN: Had you more or less been able to shelter them from that reality prior to the incident?

[01:38:39] AFROMAN: Yes, you know I live a law-abiding—I don't—I don't grow my kids up in South Central. I'm a law-abiding tax-paying citizen. I got land. I don't want them living in an apartment complex and fighting with the kids next door and walking through gangbangers trying to get home from school. Yes, we go pick them up from school. We don't even want them riding the bus.

[01:38:58] ANDREW CALLAGHAN: That goes back to what you were saying about that intentional community or micro-nation you wanted to establish.

[01:39:02] AFROMAN: Man, I—I—my kids need somewhere that nurtures them. Mentally, physically, emotionally. You know, we raise—you raise corn. You raise cotton. You raise kids. And as I raise them I don't want them getting damaged and traumatized. I want to give society some good people. So cops showing up with guns and I didn't do nothing. No. Man, think about your kid. You want anybody throwing your kid on the hood of a squad car? Kicking his ankles, telling him to open up his legs? You might lose it, brother. If you literally watch your biological blood child getting whatever by some police officers, you might be willing to give up the ghost. Like, "You know what? This memory is not worth living for the rest of my life and having." To the point where, "Man, you know what? Watching you do my daughter like that, I'm gonna have to go ahead and get down with you, brother." Yeah, man. I forget the original question, I don't know how far I drifted away but—

[01:40:00] ANDREW CALLAGHAN: Well it's more like how do these feelings influence your decision to—to make the songs that you did after the raid? 'Cause it goes back to what your dad said to you when you were a kid, making "Harry Carrie" in eighth grade, and kind of how you remain defensive but when attacked you don't stand down but you use creative means to—to achieve the objective.

[01:40:15] AFROMAN: Yeah, you know, you don't necessarily want to run up on the police. They was there after me. They didn't fuck with my kids. I just didn't like my kids seeing it. And then if I'm not a bad dude, what's all these rifles and shit out for? You know like, I seen homicide detectives walk up to the guy they about to arrest, gun in holster, clipboard down by their leg. "Hey man, you need to come with us downtown, man, we—we gotta talk." They don't run up on a dude like they did me. You know, even on 48 Hours, you know, you watch a cop walk up to one guy with his gun in his holster say, "Hey let's go downtown." And then you watch him go up to another dude, you know, with the guns all out and all that type stuff. When it ain't necessary. Like they did all that stuff to Puff Daddy. They brought the tanks, they brought all that stuff, right? Did they have to do that to arrest him? No. They walked up to him in the hotel like, "How you doing? Let's go." He like, "Okay buddy." So all that shit was for show. That was intimidation. That's bullying. So they, you know, that was in—they was trying to intimidate and bully me. So I was ready to play the bully game with them. And then they lost the bully game. With all they AR-15s and Beetle Bailey helmets and battle shields, who is the biggest pussies in court crying about they feelings hurt? Is it the rapper that don't got nothing but some dirty rap songs, or is it the big bad boys with the AR-15s? Who's crying? I realized they was bullying me, so I bullied them back. And come to find out, they are some bullies and bullies are usually the biggest wimps. They're unsympathetic, they're unconsiderate, they're inconsiderate, and come to find out he has some kind of psychological effect. So look at the bullies crying, whining.

[01:41:50] AFROMAN: Look here, brother. I'm not trying to bully her. Those tears are fake. She wasn't—she's playing a tough guy. Let's cut the crap. We playing this equality game. We gonna say men and women are equal, right? Okay. Lisa is equivalent to a man. Hey man, this ain't no time to be crying. Hey man, check this out, man. You wasn't crying, man, when you was in my yard with that AR-15, man. Equal person. Now you want to play your female card with your face facing the jury. And I ain't mad at her, she—you know what a—what a woman cop reminds me of? They remind me of a quarterback. He's a big bad football player until he's about to get tackled. Then he slides. He puts his dress on and he slides.

[01:42:28] ANDREW CALLAGHAN: What did you learn throughout the I guess lyrical research process that shocked you the most about these group of officers/plaintiffs?

[01:42:36] AFROMAN: How they were criminals worse than me and they shouldn't be in my house. Like, I smoke a little weed, I chase women. But I'm a law-abiding tax-paying citizen. Brian Newland's a pedophile, his brother's a pedophile. Mike Estep has a ex-convict for a wife. I believe birds of a feather flock together. I mean, people never said that saying for no reason. Shawn Grooms, he lied, said I'm the reason for his divorce. I made his wife my only witness. So he's a liar. Now let me ask you a question. Should a liar be a deputy sheriff? Answer my question, brother. Should a liar that got all of that power and access to your life and freedom, should a liar be a deputy sheriff?

[01:43:20] AFROMAN: Amen. So look at these motherfuckers they got walking around in my house. They got a liar walking around in my house. They got a pedophile walking around in my house. They got a thief walking around in my house. And then they got a vandal. They got a insecure vandal that don't even know if I fucked his wife or not.

[01:43:37] AFROMAN: You know what? I'm a just say yes. [laughs] It feels better when I say yes. I think about him flipping off my camera, yeah, you know. He don't know. He don't know. He's at home having unnecessary arguments, beating her ass. You know what I'm saying? I think I might, you know, I seen her the other day, man. Hey, baby got back. So I don't know. Hey man, I might have to look into that. I might have to do a little investigation in there. Hey! [laughs] You know Randy gonna fuck up. You know he gonna fuck up.

[01:44:13] ANDREW CALLAGHAN: So going back to before the trial, right after the raid, what came first? Publishing the songs that you made or like did you try to first reach out to the police directly to get restitution for the damage they caused privately?

[01:44:25] AFROMAN: You know what? I asked Randy Walters if they was going to fix my door. He said, "We're not required to do that." Now dude, I'm Black. I'm accustomed to getting done wrong by the police. I just lick my own wounds 'cause I'm accustomed to these dudes doing me wrong. And I know I can't do nothing about it. I'm gonna go down to the station and do what? Get arrested and beat up and, you know, no I ain't go down—I didn't go down to the station. I didn't make a phone call 'cause I didn't want them saying that I was harassing them and they was arresting me. I left them alone. I went back to my little Black slave world and started making rap songs. And here they are, the big high and mighty police, all in my world. With my fans, friends and family. I thought they was tripping. You know, I—I just licked my wounds.

[01:45:17] ANDREW CALLAGHAN: What do you think people resonated with in that song? Why do you think that it reached so many people? Do you feel like it drew on a lot of personal unspoken experiences?

[01:45:23] AFROMAN: People like funny stuff. It was just funny. I was like, "Look at this physically challenged officer right here." I said it like that. And I'm physically challenged so I got the right to say something about another physically challenged people. Like, we're brother—we're physically challenged brothers. We can—we can crack jokes the skinny homies can't crack, right? Me and you can crack a joke and the other like, "Wait a minute, hang on homie. What you say, man?" "Hey hang on homie, the skinny dude said something cuz, you know what I'm saying?" So—so I said, "Look at the physically challenged dude coming in right here." I was like—I was like, "Watch the physically challenged cop." I like, "He wants some of that pound cake." You can go to my TikTok and scroll down to the original post that went viral. I like, "He wants some of that lemon pound cake, man!" And that TikTok went crazy. I usually have about—dude, before the case it was only—I only had 200,000 people. I had to be humble on the stand. I was like, "There's other people bigger than me, but I'm all right." I hit a mil last night. This case brought me 800,000 followers in the last five, six days. That shit was changing in front of me. It was kind of spooky. Every time I refresh. [makes sound effects].

[01:46:24] ANDREW CALLAGHAN: Yeah, it was kind of frustrating hearing them like grill you in court, basically suggesting that because you popped off so much after the media attention around this trial that somehow you weren't taking the situation seriously enough by taking the creative route instead of just like fighting it silently in civil court.

[01:46:40] AFROMAN: Nah brother, uh you know what I'm saying? I'm a Black man in America. I—I don't feel like the court is my friend. I don't feel like the police are my friend. The police officers were invented to keep freed slaves in line. Their job is to do bad things to me. Mexicans are just getting ICE. Black people had ICE ever since—and it's not—it's like a internal—they can't get rid of us. So they need a department devoted to fucking with us and doing us dirty and keeping us away from the white population they're trying to protect or whatever. Yeah.

[01:47:12] ANDREW CALLAGHAN: How did you feel about the Black Lives Matter movement in 2020?

[01:47:15] AFROMAN: Everybody feel like they feel. I don't think people should get mad about a statement. I'm not a part of that organization and none of that. I trip on how the statement, just that statement, pissed people off. They say all lives matter. Let me ask you a question. What's the percentage of all?

[01:47:32] AFROMAN: No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Now a lot of people say all lives matter, right? What percentage is all? Period.

[01:47:40] AFROMAN: All is 100%. All lives matter, but a Black life don't matter. Now let me ask you another question. Do all lives matter?

[01:47:49] AFROMAN: No, no, no, no, no, wait a minute. A Black life doesn't matter.

[01:47:53] AFROMAN: In America, I have a Black life. So I want a Black life to matter. Not only does a Black life not matter, the statement infuriates people. The fact that you just want to feel like that. How dare you think you matter? That's how much you don't matter. I'm ask you these questions again. They say all lives matter. All is 100%. Do all lives matter?

[01:48:21] AFROMAN: 100%. All lives—they say all lives matter, but a Black life don't matter, so all lives don't matter. That statement needs to be said. I'm not a part of the organization. I heard some lesbians running it, they don't even care about Black people and—and I don't even know what's going on with it.

[01:48:35] ANDREW CALLAGHAN: Well that's—that's the Black Lives Matter like foundation slash like fundraising enterprise. I think the movement itself should be separated from whatever's going on with that 'cause that kind of became like a talking point for Trump and shit.

[01:48:47] AFROMAN: I just trip on how the statement pissed people off. It makes you mad when I say my life matters. Yeah. The people that say all lives matter, they'll be on a porn and say Black lives don't matter. But when they're in the middle of the Walmart parking lot and that comes off kind of harsh and bad, they'll just combat Black Lives Matter with All Lives Matter. But a Black life don't matter in America. Black man get hung, police shoot him, they shooting them all the time. One here, not, you know, one here, one there. Oh the cops get off. Breonna Taylor. Couple of them cops, just one of them they did something to one of them, but a couple of them cops they just let them off.

[01:49:20] ANDREW CALLAGHAN: Well I think it matters to the institution of America 'cause it's necessary for like sports and entertainment. America as an LLC relies on like Black art and labor and, you know, athletic ability to maintain some of these billion-dollar enterprises.

[01:49:32] AFROMAN: Okay, but what about the Black man that don't play sports? What about the Black man that don't jump up and catch the frisbee with his mouth? You know what I'm saying? What about the Black man that doesn't get the white American approval? Lock him up in prison. Charlie Kirk. We ought to bring back public executions. Right before he got shot, who was he blaming everything on? The—right before he got shot, the split second, the split second right after he got shot, who was he mad and fussing at? Who did he want to have public—who does he want to have public executions for?

[01:50:11] ANDREW CALLAGHAN: I believe the final question was counting or not counting gang violence.

[01:50:17] AFROMAN: Now let me ask you this. Who does he want to have public executions for?

[01:50:25] ANDREW CALLAGHAN: I'm assuming he means Black people, not the Aryan Brotherhood.

[01:50:27] AFROMAN: A Black life don't matter to Charlie. And Charlie Kirk represents 90% of America. What does Charlie Kirk think about Juneteenth?

[01:50:39] AFROMAN: What's wrong with me respecting myself and respecting other spirits outside of my body? What's wrong with that?

[01:50:45] AFROMAN: So all I'm trying to say is, people say all lives matter, but in America, if you don't play your cards right, you gotta know a Black life don't matter. If you know a Black life don't matter, you know how to move. See, I knew a Black life didn't matter, that's why I took the news down to the sheriff station with me. You hear what I'm saying? If they going to kill and hang me, they going to do it live on the news. Because my Black life don't matter to these people.

[01:51:16] ANDREW CALLAGHAN: And that's kind of the connection that I was drawing, not to make it about like politics necessarily, but using the media as a tool for police accountability is what caused the Black Lives Matter movement to gain so much traction as far as the videotaping of the George Floyd incident in Minneapolis. And you as well were able to use your personal platforms to put pressure on the same sheriff's department who acted directly with—

[01:51:34] AFROMAN: I matter if I—I entertain people and I make them smile. So I matter if I continue to do that. And then with all of the clout I got, look at the bullshit I still went through. I'm a celebrity and I still don't matter. Four million dollars. F this N-word. He doesn't matter. These are sheriff deputies.

[01:51:54] ANDREW CALLAGHAN: That was the total amount of damages the plaintiffs were asking for, was four million dollars.

[01:51:59] ANDREW CALLAGHAN: Jesus Christ. How soon after the raid did you drop the first song?

[01:52:04] ANDREW CALLAGHAN: Okay, and then how soon after that did the defamation suit get filed?

[01:52:10] ANDREW CALLAGHAN: So this shit was happening fast. Despite the fact that it took four years, it happened really fast.

[01:52:15] ANDREW CALLAGHAN: So when you first got the paperwork notifying you that you were being sued by the sheriff's department, like did you ever think that it would get to the point of trial?

[01:52:22] AFROMAN: Yeah, a sheriff is like a legal clan member for as I'm concerned. I—I knew everything, I knew everything bad that can happen would. Like they was going to go all the way with me, you know. I—you know, they was going to sue. I thought maybe they was bluffing. I thought maybe they'd drop the suit. At one point I thought I might tell them, "Hey man, look, all of y'all give me 10,000 dollars a piece and I won't sing about you no more. Give me this quick 70, 100,000 dollars right quick and we good."

[01:52:52] AFROMAN: Hell no, came back with 800,000. And I thought that was ridiculous. Then I damn near had a Red Foxx heart attack in court when he said 3.9. I'm like, "Hey!" [laughs]

[01:53:01] ANDREW CALLAGHAN: So that was their settlement term before trial, was like, "Give us 800 bands, leave us alone."

[01:53:05] AFROMAN: It was—it was gradually growing as time went. At first I think they wanted 25,000 dollars a piece.

[01:53:13] AFROMAN: No. Under the circumstance that you—how you kick down my door and you want 25,000 dollars a piece from me? Fuck you.

[01:53:20] ANDREW CALLAGHAN: I'm—I'm just so confused. Like so defamation, you just made a song about people who did something to you that's documented. How were they able to make a case even to get it to that point for defamation? Like what was the main thing they said you were lying about?

[01:53:32] AFROMAN: I don't know. Everything I said—the only thing I was lying, uh maybe Liccem Low Lisa is possibly not a lesbian. So maybe I was lying about her. Uh—

[01:53:40] ANDREW CALLAGHAN: But the parody law should—should have covered like—

[01:53:42] AFROMAN: I was just fucking with her. Like, if I say Liccem Low Lisa, I'm up there fucking—you a cop, I don't like you, I'm talking all kind of shit about you. I can say Lisa is Harry and the Hendersons. Somebody put up a wrestler. Oh my god. I think they said she look like something the Hammer. What's the dude the Hammer? He had that wild blonde—

[01:53:59] AFROMAN: No, it's a wrestler. Greg "The Hammer" Valentine. Greg "The Hammer" Valentine or something like that. Oh they got some up-to-date pictures of him, he look rough. They did like some side-by-side. Yeah. My point is this: uh I didn't, you know, I lie like that. But like everything else was truth. Okay I, you know, I didn't fuck Randy Walters' wife. But I, you know, just for tearing down my door and being unapologetic, it kind of made me laugh to know that he's insecure about his own marriage and he don't know if I fucked her or not and—and they're having unnecessary arguments. Yeah.

[01:54:30] ANDREW CALLAGHAN: But you're not a reporter or like someone claiming to be creating an act of non-fiction. Like you're a rapper.

[01:54:36] AFROMAN: I'm a dirty rapper with a bottle of Colt 45. I can't exaggerate? Yeah, but—dude, that's the privilege of being a—nobody's listening to me. You know what I'm saying?

[01:54:45] ANDREW CALLAGHAN: But I mean, especially like older rap, like horrorcore shit like from the Necro, early Eminem era, there was like songs about like ripping the fucking president's head off with a chainsaw.

[01:54:53] AFROMAN: Dude, "Lemon Pound Cake," get the fuck out of here. How big of a pussy can you be, man? "Mama's Lemon Pound Cake." And cops don't give a fuck about what you say. "Clear the premises, brat." They walk off. Cry like a bitch just for talking after he leaves. I feel like a bitch 'cause I couldn't say it to his face and squab and shoot his ass back. You know what I'm saying? And you motherfuckers are crying about what I said when you left? You going to give me that much power? Oh wow. We gonna have some fun.

[01:55:18] ANDREW CALLAGHAN: I'm trying to think maybe like how they got so hurt after the song came out. I wonder if like fans were calling the station and fucking with them and leaving Google reviews and like doing different shit to troll them.

[01:55:28] AFROMAN: You know they say they got hundreds of pound cakes sent to them at the—they should have took them home, he should have start selling them wholesale. They was obviously fresh and wrapped up and in good shape, man. He just wasn't innovative. He don't got that like that thing going on. He's a celebrity. He could go around being like, "I'm Officer Poundcake," and have girls with bikinis and feeding him pound cake and—he could play into it but he don't got that—he ain't got that thing. Like—like I tell them, I didn't like the name Afroman. I made it work. You know what I'm saying?

[01:55:55] ANDREW CALLAGHAN: So you and Officer Poundcake are on relatively cordial terms.

[01:55:58] AFROMAN: We rode the elevator down, we joked about how slow it was. But he—he genuinely does not like me. He like—he low-key got a—and I think I just embarrassed him and he just egotistical. You know, if we had 30 seconds in the backyard, we would probably be boys after that.

[01:56:16] AFROMAN: Yeah cuz, he just—he just ain't never had nobody clown his ass. Yeah. He grew up in that little county, he's a alpha male and nobody ain't never embarrassed him.

[01:56:24] ANDREW CALLAGHAN: So I looked into the specifics of the case like I said 'cause I've been getting kind of like on my legal nerd type of tip. So it looks like you guys filed an anti-SLAPP motion, which is like a free speech protection motion first. Judge denied that. You appealed the anti-SLAPP motion, which is the process you do when you feel like you got a bad rap, which by the way the anti-SLAPP appeal process is actually going away this year because the Supreme Court through a case called Gopher Media is striking down the ability to—to appeal an anti-SLAPP motion, meaning if you got a shitty judge and you file a—a free speech motion and they strike it down, you can't even appeal, you gotta go straight to the discovery process, which is going to be a huge blow for all journalists, entertainers, anybody in the free speech realm. So anyways, you guys move through the discovery process, exchange all types of text messages, information, do this whole cyber security audit. Then you move to summary judgment, which is where the judge looks over the—the whole process of discovery and then each side makes their case. And the judge still sided with all of the plaintiffs who sued you. So I'm curious like, who was the judge and did they have a—or did he or she have a personal grudge against you?

[01:57:24] AFROMAN: The judge was this judge from Pike County. He oversaw those murders of those people. Look up the Pike County Massacre. Couple dudes walked in this trailer with some shotguns, they shot the whole family, kids, everybody. He presided over that trial. For whatever reason he hates me, he hates me. He clearly was not on my side.

[01:57:44] AFROMAN: No. The Adams County Sheriff is in the same building the courthouse is in. I mean, these guys ain't buddies? You know, they don't go golfing and fishing together and—you know, so these guys are friends. All government officials, cops and government, they're all a big gang, they all hang out with each other and they bully uh normal society. So blah blah blah. No, he didn't like me and no he wasn't on my side and yeah he was on the side of the cops and yeah what else is new and what you know what I'm saying?

[01:58:19] ANDREW CALLAGHAN: A judge like needs to be able to put aside their personal connections and like whatever type of overlap they have with the police department. They should be ruling like objectively. It's frustrating to think that judges themselves could be compromised.

[01:58:30] AFROMAN: Yes. Yes dude. Everybody can be compromised, dude. On Earth, this is not a perfect world. Anybody can be corrupt, everybody got different motives. You gotta watch who get where. 'Cause you can get done wrong, man. You know, wrong people on the jurors, wrong judge. He'd help them all the way he could. He—he tried to brainwash them. "They ignore the fact that he is a celebrity." He was just doing everything he could to just fuck me off, give me the short end of the stick.

[01:58:55] ANDREW CALLAGHAN: Was there any twists and turns throughout trial? 'Cause you know trial is like a rollercoaster that you didn't expect.

[01:59:03] AFROMAN: Four million dollars? Nobody told me that. Four million dollars. That was a long deliberation. Eight hours of deliberation. Four million dollars in there. You know what I'm saying? Yeah, I was having shot after shot of Southern Comfort. Woo!

[01:59:21] ANDREW CALLAGHAN: Was there any like testimony from the officers that you couldn't believe?

[01:59:23] AFROMAN: I was just watching them be unaccountable and irresponsible. And all I could think about was my dad. I had to turn into my dad. "You had no business over there in the first place. All of this is your fault, you shouldn't have been here in the first place. Fuck all this shit you talking. Fuck your kids crying. Your kids are crying because you made a mistake in the first place. Go where you supposed to go, do your homework, bust some real criminals. Get out of law-abiding tax-paying citizens' houses." All rivers lead to the ocean. All statements led back to the bottom line: you shouldn't have been in my house in the first place.

[01:59:59] AFROMAN: Yeah. I—I was ready to appeal. I—'cause they threw my claims out. So I was ready to—I thought going to court was a waste of time. I'm supposed to be getting money from them. Not breaking even. Splitting the court cost? No, fuckers. If I back into a lady's car, I gotta pay for that. It ain't no me sue her, I back into a lady's car sue her and she gotta split cost with me. No, that's Deebo bullying right there. That's bullshit. My dad said a man stepped on his foot and turned around asked him, say, "Hey man, why did you put your foot underneath mine?" He's the offensive person trying to make it look like you the one tripping. Deebo bully shit, man.

[01:20:38] ANDREW CALLAGHAN: So was it—was it like a feeling of pure relief when you finally got that verdict or result?

[01:20:43] AFROMAN: I didn't know what to think. You know, it's Adams County. It's supposed to be the most racist county in Ohio. So you know, I know people know how to shine me on. "Hey Fro, how you doing? All right, 'cause I got high, okay." [whispers] "There go that N-word." You know what I'm saying? So I ain't know what ugly truth they was going to show me. I ain't know what kind of true colors they was going to show me. But even a jury in the worst county in Ohio could see that even though I don't like N-words, this dude is right. The jury seemed like some good people. They probably didn't even say that, but I just didn't know what I was going to get. 'Cause you know, everybody got that little flag in their yard with that blue stripe. Everybody's real pro-police, pro-Trump, pro-everything. So I didn't know how they was going to view their opportunity to get this dude that's been hopping through them little towns in three-wheelers. I'm pretty sure some people don't want me there.

[01:21:33] ANDREW CALLAGHAN: Do you feel more comfortable living there now that you stood up for yourself and came out on top?

[01:21:37] AFROMAN: Yes. Yes. Yes. Um, man I—I believe I could be the mayor of that town. I believe I could run for sheriff.

[01:21:47] ANDREW CALLAGHAN: Got it, got it. So you're going to stay in West Union.

[01:21:49] AFROMAN: Yeah, 'cause if I move, I gotta deal with another police department. It's like moving schools. After you beat up all the bullies at your school, do you want to go to a new school?

[01:21:57] AFROMAN: Hell fuck no, goddamn. That shit's over with. Now bring the beer and the girls, all right. Let's have the Revenge of the Nerds parties and shit, you know what I'm saying? You know, I might build me a house in Palmdale. You know, California, it's all good at the same time it's all bad. You know, the wrong dude spot you, don't like your set, don't like your skin. I don't have to worry about gang shit in Ohio. All I got to deal with is racism. But in California, I got to deal with racism, gang tension, everything. So now when my son get out of high school, I am giving up Ohio winters. I'm done. I'm a tough LA boy but I have lost this fight. I can't take it no more. I feel like Muhammad Ali when he was holding up that glove against George Foreman, like, "Damn cuz, I'm a bad motherfucker but goddamn."

[01:22:42] ANDREW CALLAGHAN: So you mentioned your kids a couple different times and you said one of the reasons you wanted to fight back was because you—you saw the change in their mind and their life after the incident. Do you feel like you've seen them change for the better now after the victory?

[01:22:55] AFROMAN: Yes. Um, they are proud of their daddy. They both have afros, they wear them with pride. They know to love everybody, not be rude and cocky. But they're—they're loving themselves and everybody outside of their bodies. So they're in good spirits. And that's what I want my—you want your children to be happy. You can be happy and your kid's depressed. You created a little human that's over there sad. That has an effect on you. You don't want your child sad. You want your child running through the house, "Whee! Slow down!" You know, motherfucker happy as hell. You want your child happy. You don't want your child depressed and bullied and—and—and traumatized.

[01:23:36] ANDREW CALLAGHAN: So you feel like you completed your responsibility and fulfilled your duty as a father.

[01:23:40] AFROMAN: Yes. You know, I showed them how to handle the police. Obey the law, install your cameras, know your rights, know the truth, and the truth shall set you free. Now when you living right, when you living right, you don't mind telling the truth. When you living wrong, that's the last thing you want to tell. So I tell my kids live right, and then tell the truth and tell it hard.

[01:24:01] ANDREW CALLAGHAN: And then so back in 2024, you ran for president. How do you think the current guy's doing?

[01:24:07] AFROMAN: There's things people don't like about me. So I can pick the things I don't like about him. Trump. Yeah. I can tell you the things I like about him, I can tell you the things I don't like about him.

[01:24:18] AFROMAN: Um, I haven't been watching the news lately because I have been the news here lately. Hard to watch the news when you're on the news. Last I heard we went to war with Iran. And that's the last I heard. I turned the TV off 'cause like, you know, then I had to go to court, I had my own drama. I know like uh the—putting the—putting the Civil War generals back on all of the places, you know.

[01:24:41] AFROMAN: Yeah, I'm a slave. I'm a slave. Do I want to see a Confederate general's name anywhere? If you was a Jewish person, do you want to walk by statues of Hitler?

[01:24:57] AFROMAN: You know, I'm not going to cry if you put one up, but do I want that? No. You know what I'm saying? So if we're going to be one country, we shouldn't glorify the things that made another group of people feel bad. If I'm gonna say, "Look, we're all going to be Americans," well I'm not going to have something around that disrespects Black people and offends them. I don't like renaming all of the places Confederate generals and I don't like uh giving police officers 100% immunity. Can you imagine these people that had me in the courthouse getting 100% immunity? Liars, pedophiles, thieves, with 100% immunity and a pistol? No. So that's what I didn't like about Donald Trump. That was the real main thing I didn't like about Donald Trump is 100% immunity to people who could possibly be pedophiles, thieves, liars, you know, criminals camouflaged as law enforcement.

[01:26:11] AFROMAN: Well, we need better character in the police department. Better morals. Be a good person. I thought I was a bad person. I got better character than those police officers.

[01:26:21] ANDREW CALLAGHAN: I guess the problem is, in my experience it seems like the kind of people who gravitate toward wanting to be cops are the exact kind of people you wouldn't want to be cops. Like people who felt disempowered or bullied and now they want to be the bully.

[01:26:34] AFROMAN: Right. Right. Almost like jurors that—that question a cop and be like, "Do I want this guy pulling me over if I'm going five above the limit?" Right. Right. Like, we need to pick cops like a girl pick a guy to fuck.

[01:26:44] ANDREW CALLAGHAN: Well thanks so much for your time, man. And congrats on the victory. I appreciate it, man. Thanks for answering all those questions. I just got a lot of shit I was curious about so I'm happy we got to bounce all that off before we get into the big story of the day.

[01:26:56] AFROMAN: All right, brother. I hope it was a good interview for you 'cause I was high and I was—you know—

[01:27:02] ANDREW CALLAGHAN: [laughs] You were drifting but you were saying cool shit the whole time.

[01:27:04] AFROMAN: Okay brother. Edit it to make me look good, man. Whoever edit.